MARCH 9-16, 1995
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. THE PEOPLE MAY CALL THEIR NEXT WITNESS.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE PEOPLE CALL DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
MARK FUHRMAN, CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE, WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
THE CLERK: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU MAY GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS COURT, SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE CLERK: PLEASE HAVE A SEAT ON THE WITNESS STAND AND STATE AND SPELL YOUR FIRST AND LAST NAMES FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: MARK FUHRMAN, M-A-R-K F-U-H-R-M-A-N.
THE CLERK: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK:
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT TESTIFYING TODAY?
A: NERVOUS.
Q: OKAY.
A: RELUCTANT.
Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHY?
A: THROUGHOUT -- SINCE JUNE 13, IT SEEMS THAT I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF THE EVIDENCE IGNORED AND A LOT OF PERSONAL ISSUES COME TO THE FOREFRONT. I THINK THAT IS TOO BAD.
Q: OKAY. HEARD A LOT ABOUT YOURSELF IN THE PRESS, HAVE YOU?
A: DAILY.
Q: IN LIGHT OF THAT FACT, SIR, YOU HAVE INDICATED THAT YOU FEEL NERVOUS ABOUT TESTIFYING.
HAVE YOU GONE OVER YOUR TESTIMONY IN THE PRESENCE OF SEVERAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS IN ORDER TO PREPARE YOURSELF OR COURT AND THE ALLEGATIONS THAT YOU MAY HEAR FROM THE DEFENSE?
A: YES.
Q: AND IN THE COURSE OF THAT PARTICULAR EXAMINATION, SIR, WAS THE TOPIC OF YOUR TESTIMONY CONCERNING THE WORK YOU DID IN THIS CASE, THE ACTUAL VISITATION TO BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM, WAS THAT DISCUSSED?
A: NO.
Q: IT DEALT WITH SIDE ISSUES, SIR?
A: YES, IT WAS.
Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT EXERCISE?
MR. BAILEY: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I HAVE NEVER BEEN CONFRONTED WITH A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING SUCH AS THIS, SO I WAS -- I THINK IT WAS A CONCERN THAT SOME OF THESE ISSUES HAVE NEVER BEEN BREACHED BEFORE.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU SAY YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN CONFRONTED WITH A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING SUCH AS THIS, YOU HAVE TESTIFIED BEFORE, HAVEN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: IN CRIMINAL CASES?
A: YES.
Q: HOMICIDE CASES?
A: YES.
Q: SO WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY "A SITUATION LIKE THIS"?
A: WELL, IT SEEMS THAT THE ISSUES WE WERE CONCERNED WITH WEREN'T EVIDENTIARY IN NATURE OR ABOUT THE CRIME; MOSTLY OF A PERSONAL NATURE.
Q: ALL RIGHT, SIR.
CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU ARE EMPLOYED RIGHT NOW?
A: I'M A DETECTIVE FOR THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES CURRENTLY ASSIGNED TO WEST LOS ANGELES HOMICIDE.
Q: HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO EMPLOYED?
A: 19 YEARS SIX MONTHS.
Q: AND IS THAT SINCE YOU HAVE JOINED LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT?
A: YES.
Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOUR ASSIGNMENTS WERE ON JUNE THE 12TH AND THE 13TH?
A: I WAS A DETECTIVE ASSIGNED TO WEST LOS ANGELES HOMICIDE.
Q: OKAY. THAT WAS IN 1994?
A: YES.
Q: IN 1985 AND '88, WHERE WERE YOU ASSIGNED, SIR?
A: WEST LOS ANGELES PATROL.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOUR DUTIES IN THAT CAPACITY?
A: MOSTLY A PATROL CAR.
Q: NOW, IN THE WEST LOS ANGELES AREA YOU WERE ASSIGNED TO, SIR, DID THAT INCLUDE THE BRENTWOOD AREA?
A: YES....
Q: NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE YEAR OF 1985, SIR, WERE YOU A PATROLMAN AT THAT TIME?
A: YES, I WAS.
Q: DID YOU RESPOND TO A RADIO CALL WHICH LED YOU TO THE LOCATION OF 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM IN BRENTWOOD?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU WERE ON DUTY AT THAT TIME, SIR, WERE YOU?
A: YES, I WAS.
Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE NATURE OF THAT CALL WAS?
A: IT WAS A 415 FAMILY DISPUTE.
Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU DIRECTED TO GO?
A: 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM....
Q: WHERE DID YOU GO TO WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION?
A: WE DROVE -- I BELIEVE WE DROVE UP ROCKINGHAM TURNING ONTO ASHFORD WHICH BROUGHT US TO THE ASHFORD GATE WHICH WAS OPENED.
Q: AND DID YOU DRIVE INTO THE DRIVEWAY OR PARK OUTSIDE?
A: PARKED OUTSIDE.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I WALKED INTO THE DRIVEWAY AND I SAW TWO PEOPLE IN THE DRIVEWAY.
Q: WHO DID YOU SEE?
A: I SAW MR. SIMPSON AND A FEMALE THAT WAS LEANING ON THE HOOD OF A CAR.
Q: AND WHAT KIND OF CAR WAS THAT?
A: A MERCEDES BENZ.
Q: AND CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE FEMALE THAT YOU SAW LEANING AGAINST THE HOOD OF THE CAR?
A: SHE HAD HER HANDS TO HER FACE, SO I COULDN'T TELL MUCH OF WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE IN THE FACE. SHE LOOKED LIKE SHE HAD LIGHT HAIR AND IT WAS HARD TO JUDGE THE HEIGHT, BUT I WOULD CHARACTERIZE AS AVERAGE HEIGHT AND AVERAGE WEIGHT.
Q: WHAT WAS SHE DOING?
A: SHE HAD HER HANDS TO HER FACE AND SHE WAS SOBBING.
Q: AND WHERE WAS THE DEFENDANT AT THAT TIME?
A: HE WAS WALKING ON THE DRIVEWAY.
Q: WHICH DRIVEWAY WAS THAT?
A: HIS DRIVEWAY AT ROCKINGHAM, THE DRIVEWAY ON ROCKINGHAM RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MERCEDES.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE MERCEDES?
A: THE WINDSHIELD WAS SHATTERED.
Q: DID YOU LOOK TO SEE WHAT HAD BEEN THE CAUSE OF THAT WINDSHIELD GETTING SHATTERED?
A: I SAW A BASEBALL BAT THAT WAS LEANING UP AGAINST THE WALL CLOSE TO THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: NOW, DID YOU GET A GOOD LOOK AT THE WOMAN'S FACE?
A: NO.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE RECOGNIZED HER AGAIN ON A LATER OCCASION?
A: NO.
Q: NOW, DID SHE SAY ANYTHING TO YOU AT THE TIME THAT YOU MADE CONTACT WITH HER?
A: I MADE SOME INQUIRIES WHEN I FIRST WALKED UP AS IF THEY WERE THE RESIDENTS.
MR. SIMPSON RESPONDED SAYING THAT THIS WAS HIS HOUSE. AND I ASKED THE LADY WHO BROKE THE WINDSHIELD AND SHE RESPONDED "HE DID."
Q: DID THE DEFENDANT MAKE ANY RESPONSE?
A: I BELIEVE HE ADMITTED THAT HE HIT IT AND STATING THAT IT WAS HIS.
Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS -- WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S DEMEANOR AT THAT TIME?
A: WELL, HE WAS AGITATED, BUT HE WASN'T OUT OF CONTROL. HE WAS JUST AGITATED.
Q: COULD YOU TELL WHETHER THERE WAS ANY PHYSICAL INJURY TO THE BODY OF THE WOMAN?
A: I COULDN'T TELL, NO.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SEE ANY SIGNS OF PHYSICAL INJURY TO HER?
A: NO, NO.
Q: AND DID YOU ASK HER IF SHE WANTED TO HAVE A REPORT PREPARED?
A: YES.
Q: AND HER RESPONSE?
A: SHE DID NOT. SHE SAID NO....
Q: AND YOUR PARTNER, DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT THE TIME YOU HAD CONTACT WITH THE DEFENDANT AND THE WOMAN?
A: MY PARTNER WAS NEXT TO ME OR WITHIN A SHORT DISTANCE OF ME. I WAS TAKING THE LEAD TO AT LEAST ASK THE QUESTIONS.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, DID THE DEFENDANT RESIST YOUR BEING ON THE PROPERTY AT ALL?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU ARREST HIM?
A: NO.
Q: AFTER THE FEMALE INDICATED TO YOU THAT SHE DID NOT WANT TO FILE A REPORT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: WE LEFT THE LOCATION....
Q: NOW, BACK IN 1985 AND 1986, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU KNEW SOMEONE OR MET SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF KATHLEEN BELL?
A: YES, I CAN TELL YOU. I DID NOT.
Q: BUT YOU DO RECOGNIZE THE NAME, DON'T YOU, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HEARD THAT NAME?
A: IT WAS IN '94, I BELIEVE IN THE FALL OF '94. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT MONTH.
Q: BY THE FALL YOU MEAN SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER?
A: SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER.
Q: AND DO YOU RECALL WHEN YOU TESTIFIED IN THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS MATTER?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT, SIR?
A: I BELIEVE JULY 5TH AND 6TH, 1994.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU FIRST HEARD HER NAME AFTER YOU TESTIFIED AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING?
A: YES.
Q: AND HOW WAS IT THAT YOU HEARD HER NAME IN CONNECTION WITH WHAT?
A: IN CONNECTION WITH ALLEGATIONS OF STATEMENTS I MADE TO HER AT A DATE SOME TIME IN '85 OR '86.
Q: AND WHERE DID YOU HEAR THOSE ALLEGATIONS, SIR?
A: IN THE NEWS.
Q: AND WERE YOU INFORMED ABOUT A LETTER SHE HAD WRITTEN IN JULY OF 1994 AFTER THE PRELIMINARY HEARING TO JOHNNIE COCHRAN?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: AND HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THAT LETTER THIS MORNING?
A: I'M NOT SURE IF I REVIEWED THAT LETTER. I DON'T BELIEVE I REVIEWED THE LETTER. I HAVE SEEN A STATEMENT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS THAT INITIAL LETTER.
Q: SO ARE YOU PRESENTLY VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE CONTENTS OF THE LETTER THAT THIS WOMAN WROTE TO MR. COCHRAN?
A: OH, YES....
Q: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU, SIR, WHEN WE LEFT OFF, I ASKED YOU IF YOU HAD SEEN A COPY OF THE LETTER WRITTEN BY THE WOMAN NAMED KATHLEEN BELL THAT SHE WROTE IN JULY OF 1994 TO MR. COCHRAN. I BELIEVE IT WAS JULY 19TH OF 1994 AND I WAS ABOUT TO ASK YOU TO READ THAT LETTER ON THE MONITOR. COULD YOU NOW DO SO, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: FIRST OF ALL, SIR, WITH RESPECT TO THIS PARAGRAPH, DID YOU VISIT A MARINE RECRUITING OFFICE LOCATED IN REDONDO BEACH IN 1985 TO -- BETWEEN 1985 AND 1986?
A: YES.
Q: DO YOU REMEMBER MEETING A WOMAN NAMED KATHLEEN BELL AT THAT MARINE RECRUITING OFFICE BETWEEN 1985 AND 1986?
A: NO.
Q: DID ONE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ON THIS CASE ASK YOU TO WATCH LARRY KING LIVE ON TELEVISION?
A: YES, THEY DID.
Q: AND DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHEN THAT WAS?
A: I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE LAST MONTH. I THINK IT WAS THE -- THE PROGRAM SHE WAS ON JUST BEFORE THE MOST RECENT. SO I THINK IT WOULD BE ABOUT A MONTH.
Q: SO ABOUT A MONTH AGO?
A: A MONTH, YES.
Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE WERE YOU WATCHING LARRY KING LIVE?
A: THEY ASKED ME TO JUST LOOK AT THE SHOW AND SEE IF LOOKING AT THE WOMAN JOGGED MY MEMORY.
Q: AND DID YOU THEN LOOK AT THE SHOW, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU SEE A WOMAN WHO CALLED HERSELF KATHLEEN BELL?
A: YES.
Q: AND DID YOU RECOGNIZE HER?
A: NO, I DID NOT.
Q: NEXT PARAGRAPH. OKAY. YOU'VE READ THE CONVERSATION THUS FAR AS DESCRIBED IN THE LETTER?
A: YES, I HAVE.
Q: DID THE CONVERSATION KATHLEEN BELL DESCRIBES IN THIS LETTER OCCUR?
A: NO, IT DID NOT.
Q: AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR TESTIMONY, WE REFERRED TO A PRACTICE SESSION IN WHICH THERE WERE SEVERAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS WE REFERRED TO AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR TESTIMONY. THAT PRACTICE OR MOCK CROSS-EXAMINATION, DID THAT DEAL WITH THE ANTICIPATED CROSS-EXAMINATION ON THIS SUBJECT OF KATHLEEN BELL?
A: YES, IT DID.
Q: DID IT DEAL WITH YOUR ACTUAL WORK ON THIS CASE AS A POLICE DETECTIVE?
A: NO, IT DIDN'T.
Q: AND HOW LONG DID THAT EXAMINATION TAKE PLACE FOR?
A: 20 TO 30 MINUTES.
Q: AND THAT CONVERSATION THAT IS DESCRIBED IN THIS LETTER FROM KATHLEEN BELL, DID THAT OCCUR, SIR?
A: NO, IT DIDN'T.
Q: NOW, BACK IN 1985, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT YOU RESPONDED TO THE DEFENDANT'S HOME ON -- AT 360 ROCKINGHAM PURSUANT TO A CALL WHERE YOU SAW A WOMAN CRYING, LEANING UP AGAINST A MERCEDES BENZ. DO YOU RECALL THAT TESTIMONY, SIR?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: DID YOU EVER FILL OUT A REPORT THAT DESCRIBED THAT EVENT?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: NOW, YOU SAW THAT THE WOMAN INVOLVED WITH MR. SIMPSON WAS A WHITE WOMAN, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU TAKE ANY STEPS TO FURTHER INVESTIGATE THAT INCIDENT?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU MAKE ANY EFFORT TO ENCOURAGE THAT THE DEFENDANT BE PROSECUTED FOR IT?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU ATTEMPT TO PERSUADE MISS --
LET ME BACK UP FOR A SECOND. THE WOMAN THAT YOU SAW THERE CRYING UP AGAINST THE MERCEDES BENZ, DID YOU -- HAVE YOU SINCE DETERMINED WHO THAT WAS?
A: WELL, SINCE IT WAS TOLD TO ME WHO IT WAS, YES.
Q: AND THAT PERSON IS?
A: NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
Q: DID YOU ATTEMPT TO PERSUADE HER TO SEEK PROSECUTION FOR THE INCIDENT?
A: NO.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE DONE SO?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU NOTIFY ANY NEWS MEDIA ABOUT THAT INCIDENT?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: DID YOU CALL THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER?
A: NO.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE PADDED THE DEFENDANT DOWN AFTER THAT INCIDENT?
A: I BELIEVE, CONSIDERING THE CALL, YES, I COULD HAVE.
Q: DID YOU?
A: NO.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE ASKED FOR HIS IDENTIFICATION AS A RESULT OF THAT INCIDENT AT THAT TIME?
A: ABSOLUTELY.
Q: DID YOU?
A: NO....
Q: COULD YOU HAVE CALLED YOUR SUPERVISOR TO COME AND FURTHER INVESTIGATE THE INCIDENT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU?
A: NO, I DIDN'T....
Q: COULD YOU HAVE INTERVIEWED MR. SIMPSON CONCERNING THESE INCIDENT -- THAT INCIDENT?
A: YES.
Q: AND DID YOU?
A: NO.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE INTERVIEWED NICOLE BROWN CONCERNING THE INCIDENT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU?
A: NO.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE INSISTED ON SOME FURTHER FOLLOW-UP OF THAT INCIDENT?
A: I COULD HAVE, YES.
Q: DID YOU?
A: NO.
Q: NOW, DID YOU CONTINUE TO WORK AT WEST L.A. AFTER THAT INCIDENT, SIR?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: AND DID YOU HAVE ANY ADDITIONAL CONTACT WITH THE DEFENDANT AFTER 1985?
A: NO.
Q: NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU DID NOT WRITE ANYTHING DOWN TO DESCRIBE THE INCIDENT IN ANY KIND OF REPORT BACK IN 1985. AT SOME POINT IN TIME THOUGH, DID -- WERE YOU -- DID YOU WRITE SOMETHING CONCERNING THAT INCIDENT?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: AND WHAT WAS IT THAT YOU WROTE?
A: I WROTE A LETTER TO -- IT WAS ADDRESSED TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, BUT IT WAS ADDRESSED TO THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. I'M SORRY. IT WASN'T ADDRESSED TO. IT WAS REQUESTED BY THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.
Q: OKAY. NOW, CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT THAT IS, WHAT THAT WAS? WAS IT A LETTER? WAS IT A REPORT?
A: I BELIEVE IT WOULD BE CHARACTERIZED AS A MEMO.
Q: AND WHAT DID THAT MEMO CONTAIN? WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION DID IT HAVE?
A: IT JUST DESCRIBED THE INCIDENT AS I REMEMBERED IT THAT OCCURRED IN 1985.
Q: AND WHY DID YOU WRITE THAT MEMO, SIR?
A: IT WAS REQUESTED BY A DETECTIVE THAT WAS HANDLING A CURRENT CASE IN 1989 INVOLVING MR. AND MRS. SIMPSON....
Q: WAS IT YOUR IDEA TO WRITE THIS LETTER, SIR?
A: NO.
Q: YOU WROTE IT IN RESPONSE TO THE REQUEST OF THE CITY ATTORNEY?
A: YES, VIA THE DETECTIVE HANDLING THE CASE.
Q: OKAY. WHAT WAS YOUR POSITION AT THE TIME YOU WROTE THIS MEMO, SIR?
A: I WAS A DETECTIVE TRAINEE.
Q: STILL A POLICE OFFICER, RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. LOOK ON THE SCREEN, IF YOU WILL, SIR.... ALL RIGHT. I AM GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION, SIR, FIRST OF ALL TO THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH. DO YOU RECALL WRITING THAT?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND DOES THAT DESCRIBE THE EVENTS THAT YOU'VE JUST DESCRIBED FOR THE JURY AS YOU REMEMBER THEM WHEN YOU WROTE THE MEMO?
A: YES.
Q: IS THAT AN ACCURATE DEPICTION OF THE EVENTS?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, YOU WROTE AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS -- OH, EXCUSE ME. YOU HAVE HERE AT THE VERY TOP LINE, SIR, A 415, FAMILY DISPUTE. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT 415 MEANS?
A: IT'S A DISTURBANCE.
Q: AND THAT'S A PENAL CODE SECTION, IS IT?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THIS MEMO AFTER YOU WROTE IT, SIR?
A: AT THE TIME IT WAS REQUESTED, I TYPED IT AND HANDED IT DIRECTLY TO THE DETECTIVE.
Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU PUT DOWN AT THE BOTTOM HERE, "IT SEEMS ODD TO REMEMBER SUCH AN EVENT, BUT IT'S NOT EVERY DAY THAT YOU RESPOND TO A CELEBRITY'S HOME FOR A FAMILY DISPUTE. FOR THIS REASON, THIS INCIDENT WAS INDELIBLY IMPRESSED IN MY MEMORY....CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT, THAT IT WAS INDELIBLY PRESSED IN YOUR MEMORY?
A: WELL, I HAD NEVER BEEN TO A CELEBRITY'S HOME BEFORE ON A FAMILY DISPUTE. MR. SIMPSON WAS A VERY FAMOUS MAN, AND ONCE I WALKED IN, I RECOGNIZED HIM. AND THOSE TWO THINGS WOULD MAKE IT A MEMORABLE INCIDENT.
Q: UH-HUH. ARE YOU A FOOTBALL FAN, SIR?
A: NOT AS MUCH AS A BASKETBALL FAN, BUT YES, I AM.
Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WALKED ONTO THE PROPERTY OF 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU IMMEDIATELY RECOGNIZE HIM?
A: ONCE I GOT INTO THE DRIVEWAY, YES.
Q: AND WAS THAT EVENT INDELIBLY PRESSED IN YOUR MEMORY?
A: MORE SO WHEN I WROTE THIS THAN PREVIOUS TO JUNE 12TH, BUT YES, IT WAS THEN.
Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, IS WEST LOS ANGELES DETECTIVES YOUR CURRENT ASSIGNMENT, SIR?
A: YES, IT IS.
Q: AND YOU WERE SO ASSIGNED I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US ON JUNE THE 12TH AND 13TH OF 1994?
A: YES.
Q: ON THE EVENING OF JUNE THE 12TH...DID YOU RECEIVE A CALL AT SOME POINT THAT NIGHT --
A: YES, I DID....
Q: AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GET THAT CALL?
A: AT 1:05 IN THE MORNING.
Q: DID IT WAKE YOU UP?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU TOLD IN THAT CALL?
A: I WAS TOLD BY MY SUPERVISOR, THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR, DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS, THAT WE HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE AND IT WAS AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND THAT I WOULD MEET HIM AT THE STATION AND WE WOULD GET A VEHICLE WITH A HOMICIDE KIT AND GO OUT TO THE SCENE FROM THERE.
Q: WERE YOU TOLD ANYTHING ABOUT THE IDENTITY OF EITHER VICTIM?
A: YES. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SAID THAT THE FEMALE VICTIM MIGHT BE THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON.
Q: AND WHERE DID THE CALLER TELL YOU TO GO?
A: 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
Q: SO WHERE DID YOU GO?
WAIT. LET ME -- WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR HOME, WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: TO THE POLICE STATION AT 1663 SOUTH BUTLER, WEST LOS ANGELES STATION.
Q: AND DID YOU MEET SOMEONE THERE?
A: YES.
Q: WHO?
A: DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS.
Q: AND WHAT TIME DID YOU MEET HIM?
A: SHORTLY BEFORE 2:00 O'CLOCK, MAYBE 1:50.
Q: DID YOU LEAVE IMMEDIATELY THEN?
A: WELL, WE COLLECTED -- NOT IMMEDIATELY. WE COLLECTED BRIEFCASES, FLASHLIGHTS, ANYTHING WE THOUGHT WE NIGHT NEED AT THE SCENE, PUT IT INTO A VEHICLE AND LEFT FROM THAT -- FROM THE STATION PARKING LOT.
Q: SO DID YOU DRIVE IN YOUR OWN CAR OR DID YOU GO WITH SOMEONE ELSE?
A: WELL, WE DROVE IN OUR OWN VEHICLES TO THE STATION AND THEN PUT EVERYTHING INTO A POLICE VEHICLE AND LEFT FROM THE STATION TO GO TO THE SCENE.
Q: SO YOU AND RON PHILLIPS WENT FROM THE STATION TO THE SCENE TOGETHER?
A: YES. HE WAS DRIVING, I WAS PASSENGER.
Q: AND DID YOU DRIVE TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT TIME DID YOU GET THERE?
A: 0210 HOURS IS WHEN WE SIGNED IN TO THE OFFICER THAT WAS RUNNING THE LOG.
Q: OKAY. 2:10 A.M.?
A: YES....
Q: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, IF YOU NOTED WHAT THE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE WAS WHEN YOU ARRIVED THAT NIGHT?
A: I APPROXIMATED IT AT ABOUT 60 DEGREES.
Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT THERE, YOU'VE ALREADY INDICATE IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS THERE WERE POLICE CARS THERE. HOW MANY, IF YOU RECALL?
A: I BELIEVE I SAW AT LEAST TWO BLACK AND WHITE'S WHEN I DROVE UP AND I BELIEVE WE WERE THE FIRST PLAIN OR DETECTIVE VEHICLE.
Q: UH-HUH.
A: I'M NOT SURE IF I WENT -- SAW ONE DOWN THE ALLEY ON DOROTHY TO THE WEST OF THE LOCATION, BUT AT LEAST TWO -- TWO BLACK AND WHITE'S IN FRONT.
Q: WERE THEY IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION, SIR?
A: IN FRONT OF 875 BUNDY?
Q: UH-HUH.
A: NO. THAT STREET WAS BLOCKED OFF.
Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU CHECKED IN WITH A PERSON WHO WAS KEEPING A LOG. IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID?
A: YES....
Q: SHOW YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S 1006. TELL US IF YOU CAN POINT OUT YOUR NAME, SIR, AND YOUR TIME OF ARRIVAL.
A: IT'S THE 10TH ENTRY ON THE LOG, 010 -- 0210 HOURS. OUR DESIGNATION WAS 8W110 AND PHILLIPS AND MYSELF ARE SIGNED IN ON THAT LOG.
Q: AS INVESTIGATORS?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT'S THAT 8W110? WHAT'S THAT?
A: THAT'S RON PHILLIPS' CALL SIGN.
Q: IS THAT WHAT YOU USE WHEN YOU GET ON THE RADIO TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF?
A: YES. YES.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU GOT THERE, SIR... WHO WAS THERE?
A: SERGEANT ROSSI AND I BELIEVE SERGEANT COON, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF HE WAS THERE AT THAT TIME FOR ME TO SEE OR IT WAS A LITTLE LATER, MAYBE A HALF HOUR LATER....
Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL ANY STAFF OFFICERS OR COMMAND LEVEL OFFICERS THERE WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
A: NOT AT THAT TIME.
Q: NOW, WHAT WAS THE CONDITION OF THE CRIME SCENE WHEN YOU FOUND IT, WHEN YOU GOT THERE AT 2:10?
A: WELL, THE STREETS HAD BEEN BLOCKED OFF WITH CRIME TAPE AND POLICE VEHICLES. WE WERE ADVISED THAT CERTAIN STREETS AND ALLEYWAYS HAD BEEN BLOCKED OFF.
THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE HAD BEEN TAPED OFF AND SECURED ALL THE WAY TO DOROTHY AND TO THE NEXT STREET TO THE NORTH. THE NORTH-SOUTH ALLEYWAY DIRECTLY BEHIND THE RESIDENCE HAD BEEN BLOCKED OFF WITH POLICEMEN AT BOTH LOCATIONS TO MAKE SURE NOBODY ENTERED THE CRIME SCENE FROM EITHER DIRECTION.
Q: OKAY. SO WAS THERE ANYONE MOVING AROUND INSIDE THE CRIME SCENE TAPE WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
A: NO.
Q: WHO WAS THE -- DID YOU MAKE CONTACT WITH THE FIRST OFFICER THAT FOUND THE BODIES?
A: YES. BOTH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I DID.
Q: AND WHO WAS THAT?
A: OFFICER RISKE.
Q: AND DID YOU MAKE CONTACT WITH SERGEANT ROSSI AS WELL?
A: YES. I BELIEVE SERGEANT ROSSI WAS CONTACTED FIRST. RISKE CAME UP WHILE WE WERE SPEAKING TO HIM.
Q: NOW, OFFICER RISKE, DID YOU KNOW HIM PRIOR TO THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994?
A: NO. I ONLY KNEW HIM AS RISKE.
Q: OKAY. DO YOU SOCIALIZE WITH OFFICER RISKE ANY?
A: NO. I DIDN'T KNOW HIS FIRST NAME UNTIL I SAW IT ON THE NEWS.
Q: OKAY. NOW, HE WAS A PATROL COP; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU EXPECT TO SEE PATROL OFFICERS AT THAT LOCATION WHEN YOU ARRIVED, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHY IS THAT?
A: WELL, ALMOST -- ALMOST ALWAYS, A PATROL OFFICER IS THE FIRST OFFICER TO RESPOND TO A HOMICIDE SCENE. USUALLY IT'S FROM A RADIO CALL AND THEY'RE THE FIRST ONES THERE.
Q: WHAT ARE PATROL OFFICERS' DUTIES AT A CRIME SCENE?
A: THE FIRST AND FOREMOST FUNCTION WOULD BE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE POSSIBLE VICTIMS ARE IN FACT VICTIMS AND HAVE EXPIRED SO TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S NO CHANCE OF RESUSCITATION OR SAVING THE PEOPLE THAT ARE OR PERSON THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD.
THE SECOND WOULD BE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE SUSPECT EITHER HAS BEEN FOUND, LOCATED AND ARRESTED OR HE IS NOT AT THE SCENE AND MAKE SURE THAT THE SCENE IS SECURE FROM SUSPECTS AND THEN THE THIRD WOULD BE, AFTER THOSE TWO FUNCTIONS, IS PROTECT THE CRIME SCENE AND ANY EVIDENCE FOR THE DETECTIVES IN THEIR INVESTIGATION.
Q: HOW MANY HOMICIDE SCENES HAVE YOU APPEARED AT? NOT HANDLED, BUT APPEARED AT.
A: WELL, I'D PROBABLY SAY IT WOULD -- CONSERVATIVELY, A HUNDRED FIFTY TO 200, AND GENEROUSLY, PROBABLY MORE THAN 250 TO 300.
Q: OKAY. AND WHEN I SAY APPEARED AT, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT KIND OF FUNCTIONS YOU PERFORMED IN THOSE CASES, HOMICIDE SCENES YOU'VE APPEARED AT?
A: WELL, FROM EARLY IN MY CAREER, TO RESPONDING JUST AS OFFICER RISKE DID TO A RADIO CALL TO ASSISTING AND BEING PART OF HOMICIDE INVESTIGATIONS TO BEING A PRIMARY INVOLVED INVESTIGATING THE HOMICIDE.
Q: SO HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A FIRST OFFICER AT A HOMICIDE SCENE YOURSELF?
A: YES.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER GUARDED THE PERIMETER; THAT IS, GUARDED THE CRIME SCENE TAPE AT A HOMICIDE SCENE?
A: YES, I HAVE.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER HELPED TO SEARCH THE AREA AROUND THE CRIME SCENE FOR EVIDENCE OR SUSPECTS?
A: YES.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER DOOR KNOCKED IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS AROUND THE CRIME SCENE AREA TO LOOK FOR WITNESSES?
A: YES, I HAVE.
Q: AND HAVE YOU EVER RESPONDED TO A CRIME SCENE IN YOUR CAPACITY AS A DETECTIVE?
A: YES, I HAVE.
Q: ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS HAVE YOU RESPONDED AS A DETECTIVE TO A HOMICIDE SCENE?
A: I'VE BEEN A PRIMARY ON FIVE. I RESPONDED PROBABLY TO 10, MAYBE 15, SOME WHEN I WAS WORKING ROBBERY.
Q: OKAY. NOW THEN, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, SIR, WHO DO YOU EXPECT TO ARRIVE AT A HOMICIDE SCENE BEFORE THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER OR HANDLING DETECTIVES DO?
A: I WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THE PATROL OFFICERS THAT INITIALLY GOT THE CALL.
Q: UH-HUH.
A: WHAT OFFICERS THEY FELT THAT WAS NECESSARY TO SEAL OFF THE SCENE PROPERLY. I WOULD ALSO EXPECT TO SEE A SUPERVISOR IF NOT THE WATCH COMMANDER. I MIGHT EXPECT TO SEE A COMMAND STAFF OFFICER OR THE COMMANDING OFFICER OF THE DIVISION, EITHER BE IT DETECTIVES OR PATROL.
Q: AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, SIR, WHEN YOU RESPONDED TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY, IN WHAT CAPACITY WERE YOU RESPONDING TO THAT SCENE?
A: I WAS A DETECTIVE THAT WAS TO INVESTIGATE THE HOMICIDE.
Q: THE -- YOU WERE TO BE THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER?
A: YES.
Q: THEN WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO HAVE TRANSPIRED BY THE TIME YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE?
A: I EXPECTED THE SCENE TO BE SECURED, DEATH TO BE PRONOUNCED TO THE VICTIMS, THE OFFICER TO SECURE THE LOCATION, PROTECT THE EVIDENCE, TO MAKE MENTAL NOTES OF WHERE CERTAIN THINGS WERE AND TO HELP ASSIST ME IN FINDING A PATH INTO THE -- A SCENE -- EXCUSE ME -- INTO THE SCENE.
Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU SAY "HELP ASSIST ME IN FINDING A PATH INTO THE SCENE," WHAT DID YOU MEAN?
A: THE EASIEST ROUTE TO DISTURB THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE SO THE SCENE CAN BE INVESTIGATED.
Q: THEN I TAKE IT, WAS IT YOUR EXPECTATION, SIR, THAT SOMEONE, AT LEAST ONE OFFICER WOULD ALREADY HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE AND EXAMINED THE EVIDENCE AS IT LAY -- THE BODIES AS THEY LAY AND LOOKED AROUND IN GENERAL?
A: YES. THEY WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT TO FIND OUT THEIR CONDITION.
Q: UH-HUH.
WAS IT -- DID YOU EXPECT -- DID YOU HAVE ANY EXPECTATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE AREA WOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKED THROUGH FOR SUSPECTS?
A: IT WOULD HAVE TO BE.
Q: AND DID YOU HAVE ANY EXPECTATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE AREA, THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE AREA WOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKED THROUGH FOR WEAPONS?
A: I WOULD THINK THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN, YES.
Q: AND THEN OF COURSE, FOR -- WAS IT ALSO YOUR EXPECTATION THAT SOMEONE WOULD HAVE ALREADY -- AT LEAST ONE OFFICER, IF NOT SEVERAL, WOULD HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE TO LOOK AND SEE WHERE THE EVIDENCE WAS AND WHAT IT WAS?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, KNOWING THE POSSIBLE IDENTITY OF THE -- ONE OF THE VICTIMS, SIR, DID YOU HAVE ANY EXPECTATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE WOULD BE ANY HIGH-RANKING POLICE OFFICERS ALREADY AT THE SCENE OR COMING TO THE SCENE?
A: I WOULD ASSUME THAT THERE WOULD BE A CAPTAIN THAT PROBABLY ARRIVED AT LEAST. OF COURSE, THAT HAPPENS WITH QUITE A FEW HOMICIDES. BUT I EXPECTED TO SEE SOME COMMAND OFFICERS, YES.
Q: AND WAS THAT -- WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT THAT BASED ON THE IDENTITY, POSSIBLE IDENTITY OF ONE OF THE VICTIMS?
A: I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE JUST THAT. I THINK A DOUBLE HOMICIDE WOULD PROBABLY -- I WOULD ABSOLUTELY BE FOR SURE THAT THE DETECTIVES' CO, COMMANDING OFFICER, WOULD ARRIVE, MAYBE THE AREA CO, CAPTAIN.
Q: WHAT'S AREA CO? I AM SORRY.
A: THE AREA COMMANDING OFFICER. IN OTHER WORDS, THE WEST L.A. COMMANDING OFFICER. MAYBE THE OFFICER OF THE DAY, WHICH COULD BE A CAPTAIN OR COMMANDER AND QUITE POSSIBLY MAYBE EVEN A DEPUTY CHIEF.
Q: OKAY. SO IS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE UNUSUAL IN YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS IN WEST L.A.?
A: I WOULD SAY SO, YES.
Q: OKAY. SO BASED ON THAT ALONE, YOU EXPECTED TO SEE ALL THAT BRASS THERE?
A: WELL, THAT AND THEN COUPLED WITH THE POSSIBLE IDENTITY OF ONE OF THE VICTIMS, I WOULD GUESS THAT IT WOULD BE HAPPENING, YES.
Q: UMM, OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU MET WITH OFFICER RISKE, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: OFFICER RISKE EXPLAINED WHAT HE HAD FOUND, HOW HE ARRIVED AT THE SCENE. IT WAS A VERY GENERAL DESCRIPTION AT THAT POINT.
HE GAVE AN INDICATION THAT HE RECEIVED A CALL OF A BURGLAR, A POSSIBLE BURGLAR THERE NOW OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT ACROSS THE STREET, AND THEN HE WENT ON TO SAY HOW HE DISCOVERED THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION AND THE BODIES.
Q: OKAY. AND DID HE DESCRIBE TO YOU WHAT HE FOUND IN THE CRIME SCENE, SIR?
A: YES. HE DESCRIBED IT AS HE SHOWED ME....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE SCENE DEPICTED HERE, SIR?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND WHAT IS THIS SCENE?
A: THIS IS THE FRONT OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY LOOKING DUE WEST FROM THE -- PROBABLY THE PARKWAY INTO THE WALKWAY OF THE RESIDENCE. THE FRONT GATE IS OPEN....
Q: AND DID YOU HAVE A FLASHLIGHT WITH YOU THAT NIGHT, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT KIND OF FLASHLIGHT WAS THAT?
A: I HAD A SMALL FLASHLIGHT THAT I HELD ON MY BELT.
Q: OKAY. SIZE OF A PEN?
A: YES. I BELIEVE TWO DOUBLE A BATTERIES AND ADJUSTABLE HEAD SO YOU COULD MAKE IT A WIDE BEAM OR A VERY NARROW BEAM.
Q: AND DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS HAVE A FLASHLIGHT WITH HIM?
A: YES. HE HAD A LARGER FLASHLIGHT I BELIEVE. I'M NOT POSITIVE, BUT I KNOW -- EXCUSE ME.
Q: GO AHEAD.
A: OFFICER RISKE HAD A LARGE HIGH-POWER FLASHLIGHT WITH HIM.
Q: THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION. AND WERE THEY USING THEM?
A: OFFICER RISKE WAS USING THE FLASHLIGHT.
Q: NOW, WHAT -- IS THERE ANY RULE, SIR, REGARDING CRIME SCENE EXAMINATIONS CONCERNING HOW YOU GET ACCESS TO THEM, WHERE YOU'RE ALLOWED TO GO, HOW MANY PEOPLE, THAT SORT OF THING?
A: WELL, AS FEW AS POSSIBLE. THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST RULE. AND YOU WOULD WANT TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THOSE PEOPLE WITHOUT DESTROYING ANY EVIDENCE.
Q: SO WHEN YOU WERE STANDING UP ON THE -- IN THE -- WAS THAT OUT IN THE SHRUBBERY YOU WERE STANDING THERE?
A: EXCUSE ME?
Q: WERE YOU STANDING ON SHRUBBERY OR GRASS OVER THERE?
A: YES. IT WAS SHRUBBERY, PLANTS.
Q: DID YOU STEP ON THE WALKWAY?
A: NO.
Q: WHERE THE BLOOD IS SHOWN HERE?
A: NO.
Q: DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DO THAT?
A: NO.
Q: OFFICER RISKE DO THAT?
A: NO, NOT THAT I SAW.
Q: OKAY. WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT WHERE THE ARROW IS SHOWN?
A: WE COULD SEE A FEMALE VICTIM IN A BLACK DRESS LYING AS IS DEPICTED IN THE PHOTO, HEAD TO ALMOST DUE NORTH, FEET ALMOST DUE SOUTH SOMEWHAT FACE DOWN IN A POOL OF BLOOD. IT APPEARED THAT THAT BLOOD WAS FLOWING DOWN THE WALKWAY PREDOMINATELY IN THE CRACKS OF THE TILED WALKWAY.
Q: UH-HUH.
THOSE CRACKS -- DO YOU REMEMBER THAT WALKWAY, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: IS THAT GROUTING RECESSED? IS IT DEEPER OR LOWER THAN THE ACTUAL TILE?
A: YES. IT -- I CAN'T RECALL IF IT WAS ACTUAL TILE OR A PRESS THAT THEY PUT INTO THE CONCRETE TO MAKE IT APPEAR THAT WAY, BUT THERE WAS RECESSES BETWEEN THE SQUARES.
Q: UH-HUH.
WHERE THE GROUTING WAS?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT OTHER THAN THE FEMALE VICTIM?
A: WELL, OFFICER RISKE USED HIS FLASHLIGHT TO POINT OUT SEVERAL ITEMS.
Q: AND WHAT DID HE POINT OUT TO YOU, SIR?
A: HE POINTED OUT THE MALE VICTIM FOR ONE, WHICH WASN'T EASILY SEEN FROM THAT ANGLE....
Q: ALL RIGHT, SIR. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS SCENE, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU'RE SEEING HERE?
A: YES.
Q: IS THAT THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU SAW THE SCENE WHEN YOU RESPONDED ON THE NIGHT OF -- EARLY MORNING HOURS ACTUALLY OF JUNE THE 13TH?
A: IT WASN'T THAT WELL LIT, BUT YES, THAT'S HIS POSITION.
Q: OKAY. SO IT WAS EVEN DARKER THAN IT SEEMS HERE?
A: IT APPEARED TO ME, YES.
Q: WERE YOU ABLE TO -- PLEASE DESCRIBE FOR US THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE AS OFFICER RISKE POINTED IT OUT TO YOU.
A: THE WHITE ENVELOPE.
Q: AS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A: YES. THE MALE VICTIM.
Q: IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU SAW HIM?
A: YES. THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YES.
OFFICER RISKE ALSO USED HIS FLASHLIGHT IN THE -- THE BUSH WITH THE LONG LEAVES AT THE FEET OF THE MALE VICTIM. HE POINTED HIS FLASHLIGHT AND SAID THAT THERE WAS A KNIT CAP AND A GLOVE THERE ALSO.
Q: WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THEM?
A: I WAS ABLE TO SEE SOMETHING. IT WAS PRETTY HARD TO MAKE OUT EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE FROM THAT ANGLE.
Q: OKAY. SO HE JUST TOLD YOU AT THAT POINT?
A: WELL, I -- YES.
Q: DID YOU MAKE SOME EFFORT TO SEE THE KNIT CAP AND THE GLOVE THAT HE POINTED OUT TO YOU?
A: AT THAT TIME, WE ASKED OFFICER RISKE IF THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY WE COULD COME INTO THIS CRIME SCENE.
Q: AND WHY WAS THAT, SIR?
A: IT WAS -- WE WOULD HAVE TO STEP ONTO THE SIDEWALK WHERE ALL THE BLOOD WAS TO GET INTO THE CRIME SCENE OR TOUCH THE FENCE WHICH WE WERE STANDING NEXT TO TO GET AROUND THAT. WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE. WE PREFERRED TO GO IN ANOTHER WAY IF WE COULD.
Q: OKAY. SO WERE YOU TRYING TO GET A BETTER LOOK?
A: YES.
Q: WITHOUT DISTURBING ANYTHING?
A: YES.
Q: SO WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: WE RETRACED OUR STEPS BACKWARD. WE HAD A DISCUSSION. OFFICER RISKE, SAID, WELL, WE CAN GO IN THROUGH THE ALLEY THROUGH THE BACK OF THE RESIDENCE. WE WERE PLEASED WITH THAT. SO WE WALKED BACK DOWN BUNDY SOUTH AND WEST ON DOROTHY AND THEN TO THE NORTH-SOUTH ALLEY, WHICH WAS TAPED OFF, AND WE APPROACHED THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
Q: OKAY. NOW, AS YOU WALKED UP THE GRASSY OR SHRUBBERY AREA WHICH WOULD BE TO THE SOUTH OF THE WALKWAY, THAT'S THE FRONT WALKWAY LEADING FROM THE SIDEWALK UP TO THE FRONT STEPS --
A: YES.
Q: -- DID YOU OBSERVE THAT WALKWAY AND THE BLOOD THAT WAS ON IT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU LOOK TO SEE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY -- WHETHER THERE WERE ANY SHOEPRINTS ON THAT BLOOD ON THE FRONT WALKWAY?
A: THE WALKWAY THAT'S LEADING FROM THE FEMALE VICTIM EASTBOUND?
Q: RIGHT.
A: I DID NOT SEE ANY.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU LOOK ON THE SIDEWALK -- YOU SAID YOU WALKED DOWN THE SIDEWALK SOUTH ON BUNDY AND THEN WEST ON DOROTHY?
A: NO. WE WALKED IN THE STREET.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SEE ANYTHING -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. WHY DID YOU WALK IN THE STREET? WHY NOT ON THE SIDEWALK?
A: THE BLOOD EMPTIED ONTO THE SIDEWALK AND THERE WAS PAW PRINTS, CANINE PRINTS LEADING SOUTH ON THE SIDEWALK IN THE BLOOD.
Q: I AM SORRY?
A: THE PAW PRINTS WERE IN BLOOD.
Q: BLOODY PAW PRINTS?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU FOLLOW THOSE PAW PRINTS AS YOU WALKED DOWN THE STREET?
A: THEY HEADED SOUTHBOUND AND THEN DISSIPATED....
Q: YOU SAID THAT YOU SAW BLOODY PAW PRINTS GOING SOUTH ON BUNDY?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. WHERE DID THEY FADE OUT, IF YOU RECALL?
A: IF I REMEMBER, IT WAS JUST ABOUT AT DOROTHY.
Q: AND THEN YOU INDICATED YOU WENT WHERE?
A: WE WENT WEST ON DOROTHY STREET TO THE OPENING TO THE NORTH-SOUTH ALLEY THAT LED BEHIND 875 SOUTH BUNDY....
Q: NOW, WHO WERE YOU WALKING -- I AM SORRY, SIR.
YOU INDICATED THAT YOU LEFT THE AREA RIGHT UP NEXT TO THE MAILBOX, WENT DOWN THE SHRUBBERY AND OUT TO THE STREET. AND WHO WAS WITH YOU AT THAT TIME?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE WHO WAS LEADING.
Q: WHEN YOU WENT OUT INTO THE STREET AND WALKED SOUTH ON BUNDY AND WEST ON DOROTHY, WHO WAS WITH YOU?
A: OFFICER RISKE IN THE LEAD AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF.
Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT TO THIS LOCATION, SIR... WHO WAS WITH YOU?...
A: OFFICER RISKE WAS IN THE LEAD -- HE WENT UNDER THE TAPE AND SHOWED US WHERE TO WALK -- DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF.
Q: WAS THERE AN OFFICER GUARDING THIS PERIMETER, SIR, THIS CRIME SCENE TAPE?
A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS, BUT IT'S NOT DEPICTED IN THE PHOTO, BUT I BELIEVE THERE WAS SOMEONE THERE, YES.
Q: DID YOU ALL GO INSIDE THE CRIME SCENE TAPE?
A: YES.
Q: AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: WE WENT INTO THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY FOLLOWING OFFICER RISKE....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECALL THIS SCENE, SIR?
A: YES, I DO. THAT'S THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT?
A: YES....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN HERE?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: WHAT IS IT?
A: IT'S THE OPEN GARAGE OF THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY, A BLACK JEEP CHEROKEE SITTING IN THE DRIVEWAY. JUST TO THE NORTH OF THE CHEROKEE IS THE ENTRANCE TO A WALKWAY THAT LEADS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: OKAY. AND WAS THE GARAGE DOOR OPEN WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
A: YES.
Q: DID OFFICER RISKE GIVE YOU ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THAT?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU FIND OUT WHETHER OR NOT THE GARAGE DOOR HAD INITIALLY BEEN OPEN OR CLOSED WHEN HE ARRIVED?
A: I DID NOT.
Q: NOW, DID HE POINT ANYTHING OUT TO YOU AT THAT TIME AROUND THE AREA OF THAT VEHICLE?
A: NOT AT THAT TIME.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A: WE FOLLOWED HIM THROUGH THE GARAGE PAST THE WHITE FERRARI AND IN --
Q: YOU DESCRIBED THE WHITE FERRARI IN THE PAST TWO PHOTOGRAPHS. DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT WAS SHOWN?
A: YES.
Q: WAS THAT THE FERRARI YOU REFERRED TO?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, THE AREA TO THE RIGHT OF THE FERRARI IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AS A PATH THAT YOU TOOK?
A: YES. I BELIEVE THAT'S THE PATH THAT LEADS TO THE DOOR THAT LEADS INTO THE BOTTOM REAR OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: OKAY. AND WHO LED THE WAY?
A: OFFICER RISKE.
Q: WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE, SIR, WHAT DID YOU SEE?
A: I ENTERED THE OPEN DOOR OF THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE. OFFICER RISKE POINTED OUT SOME ICE CREAM THAT WAS ON THE BANISTER AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS.
Q: UH-HUH. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT ICE CREAM, SIR?
A: BEN AND JERRY'S. I'D PROBABLY SAY A MEDIUM SIZE CUP.
Q: WHAT DID THE ICE CREAM LOOK LIKE?
A: TAN COLOR, LUMPY.
Q: OKAY. AND NEXT?
A: WE WALKED UP THE STAIRS THAT WERE DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THAT DOOR WHICH LED INTO A WALKWAY WHICH PASSED THE KITCHEN ON THE NORTH, A SOLID WALL ON THE RIGHT WHERE I BELIEVE THE TELEPHONE WAS AND SOME PICTURES WHICH LED INTO A LIVING ROOM AREA WITH AN OPEN FRONT DOOR AND A DINING ROOM AREA TO THE LEFT OR NORTH.
Q: DURING THAT FIRST WALK THROUGH, SIR, DID YOU LOOK TO SEE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY OBVIOUS SIGNS OF DISTURBANCE OR RANSACKING OR STRUGGLE?
A: I LOOKED, BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANY.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY -- ANYTHING LIKE DRAWERS PULLED OUT OR PROPERTY OR ITEMS THROWN AROUND?
A: NO. IT WAS VERY NEAT, VERY CLEAN, STERILE ALMOST.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD SMEARS ON THE WALLS?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY HOLES IN THE WALL?
A: NO.
Q: BROKEN FURNITURE?
A: NO.
Q: SPILLED PURSES?
A: NO.
Q: SPILLED JEWELRY?
A: NO.
Q: NOW, YOU MENTIONED EARLIER SOMETHING ABOUT ROBBERY, WORKING ROBBERIES. DID YOU EVER WORK ANY BURGLARY CASES?
A: YES.
Q: THROUGHOUT THE COURSE -- YOU'VE BEEN ON THE POLICE FORCE HOW LONG NOW?
A: 19 YEARS, SIX MONTHS.
Q: AND DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME, SIR, HOW MANY BURGLARY CASES APPROXIMATELY OR RESIDENTIAL ROBBERY CASES HAVE YOU WORKED?
A: AS FAR AS BOTH PATROL AND DETECTIVE?
Q: RIGHT.
A: THAT WOULD BE IN THE HUNDREDS.
Q: YOU'VE SEEN EVIDENCE OF RANSACKING IN EACH OF THOSE CASES, SIR?
A: NOT EACH, BUT IT'S A PREDOMINANT M.O. FACTOR ON A BURGLARY.
Q: DID YOU OBSERVE ANYTHING INSIDE THIS HOUSE THAT LOOKED CONSISTENT WITH RANSACKING OR BURGLARY?
A: NO....
Q: OKAY. AFTER YOU GOT TO THE LIVING ROOM, THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: OFFICER RISKE WAS DIRECTING US AND SEEING THAT -- I CAN'T RECALL IF HE SAID THAT THE DOOR WAS WIDE OPEN, BUT IT WAS AT THIS POINT.
HE WALKED US ONTO THE LANDING, AND AS HE WALKED ONTO THE LANDING, HE SHINED HIS FLASHLIGHT ON HEEL PRINTS, FOOTPRINTS, SHOEPRINTS IN BLOOD AND POINTED OUT AT LEAST ONE DROP OF BLOOD TO THE LEFT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DIDN'T STEP IN THAT AREA.
Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU SAY THE DOOR, WHICH DOOR ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
A: THE FRONT DOOR.
Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT TO IT WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, IT WAS WIDE OPEN?
A: YES....
Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE THERE, SIR? DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?
A: I RECOGNIZE THE PHOTO, YES.
Q: OKAY. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT VANTAGE POINT THAT'S TAKEN FROM?
A: IT APPEARS THAT IT'S TAKEN FROM THE LANDING THAT YOU WOULD WALK OUT ONTO FROM THE FRONT DOOR. LOOKING DOWN ON THE FEMALE VICTIM, YOU WOULD BE LOOKING IN A NORTH -- NORTHEASTERLY DIRECTION.
Q: DOES THIS DESCRIBE WHAT YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE? THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS PRETTY DARK, BUT WERE YOU ABLE TO GET THIS VIEW OF THE BODIES AND THE EVIDENCE FROM WHERE YOU WERE STANDING AT THE TOP OF THE LANDING WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES.
Q: WERE THEY USING THEIR FLASHLIGHTS AT THE TIME, SIR?
A: EXCUSE ME?
Q: WERE THEY USING THEIR FLASHLIGHTS AT THE TIME?
A: OFFICER RISKE WAS. HE WAS USING HIS TO POINT OUT ANY EVIDENCE OR ANYTHING OF VALUE THAT HE WANTED TO SHOW US.
Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT -- WHO'S THAT MAN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH THERE POINTING TO THE BUSH?
Q: CAN YOU SEE, SIR -- CAN YOU SEE, SIR, WHAT IS LOCATED UNDERNEATH THE BUSH?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT IS IT?
A: THE FOREMOST IN THE PICTURE IS A GLOVE AND ABOVE IT APPEARS TO BE A DARK BLUE KNIT CAP.
Q: NOW, WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SAW THOSE TWO ITEMS IN PARTICULAR THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO DETECT WHAT THEY WERE?
A: FROM THAT LANDING, OFFICER RISKE SHINED HIS LIGHT ON THOSE ONCE AGAIN SHOWING SEVERAL OBJECTS THAT HE HAD PREVIOUSLY SEEN.
Q: OKAY. AND IT -- WAS HE THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT THE GLOVE AND THE CAP UNDERNEATH THE BUSH TO YOU?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT ELSE DID HE POINT OUT, SIR?
A: I BELIEVE HE POINTED OUT A WHITE ENVELOPE THAT WAS JUST SOUTH OF THE MALE VICTIM CLOSE TO THE SIDEWALK. HE POINTED OUT A -- HE POINTED OUT A PAGER.
I BELIEVE I OBSERVED A MENU BELOW THE FEMALE VICTIM. I'M NOT SURE IF I DETERMINED IT WAS A MENU AT THAT POINT, BUT I SAW SOMETHING. AND HE MADE A POINT TO SHOW US HEEL PRINTS AND SHOEPRINTS THAT APPEARED TO BE IMPRINTED IN BLOOD THAT WERE LEADING WESTBOUND FROM THAT SCENE.
Q: DID YOU AT THAT TIME NOTICE ANY SHOEPRINT NEAR THE EVIDENCE OF THE HAT AND THE GLOVE?
A: YES. I SAW A SHOEPRINT, BUT IT WAS A GOOD DISTANCE FROM ME AT THAT POINT.
Q: SO AT THAT TIME, WERE YOU ABLE TO DETECT ANY SHOEPRINTS NEAR THE EVIDENCE OF THE HAT AND THE GLOVE?
A: IT APPEARED TO BE THAT THERE WAS A SHOEPRINT THERE, BUT I WASN'T VERY CLOSE TO IT.
Q: IN ORDER TO SEE, TO DISCERN WHAT THOSE ITEMS WERE UNDERNEATH THE BUSH, WAS IT NECESSARY TO USE THE LIGHT OF THE FLASHLIGHT?
A: I BELIEVE IT WAS. IT CERTAINLY AIDED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF TO SEE THOSE ITEMS....
Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT, SIR?
A: I BELIEVE IT'S THE WHITE ENVELOPE I OBSERVED THAT MORNING.
Q: NOW, EARLIER YOU SAID HEEL PRINT BETWEEN THE -- I MEAN HEEL PRINT IN BLOOD, BLOODY HEEL PRINT NEAR THE EVIDENCE OF THE HAT AND THE GLOVE. DO YOU MEAN HEEL PRINT BY A SHOE OR BARE FOOT?
A: BY A SHOE.
Q: BARE FOOT. ALL RIGHT. AFTER POINTING OUT THE EVIDENCE YOU DESCRIBED, SIR, YOU SAID OFFICER RISKE POINTED THAT EVIDENCE OUT, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: HE POINTED AT THE DIRECTION THAT THE SHOEPRINTS THAT APPEARED TO BE IN THE BLOOD OF ONE OR BOTH OF THE VICTIMS WAS MARKING ITSELF ONTO THE SIDEWALK AND LEADING WESTBOUND. HE ALSO POINTED OUT SEVERAL DROPS OF BLOOD TO THE LEFT OF THOSE FOOTPRINTS....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANYTHING --
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A: I BELIEVE THIS IS THE WALKWAY -- YES. AND THIS IS THE WALKWAY LEADING WEST ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE AWAY FROM THE LANDING THAT WE WERE JUST VIEWING FROM VIEWING THE FEMALE VICTIM.
Q: OKAY. IS THIS THE WALKWAY THAT LEADS OUT TO THE REAR ALLEY?
A: YES.
Q: TELL US WHAT ELSE YOU SEE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
A: I SEE SHOEPRINTS THAT APPEAR TO BE DARK AND IMPRINTED IN WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE BLOOD THAT MORNING POINTING WESTBOUND....
Q: THEN YOU INDICATED THAT YOU SAW BLOOD DROPS TO THE LEFT OF THOSE SHOEPRINTS?
A: YES. A FEW.
Q: DID SOMEONE POINT THOSE OUT TO YOU, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHO WAS THAT?
A: OFFICER RISKE....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHILE HE'S PRINTING, SIR, LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE QUESTIONS.
YOU SAID YOU CAME OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND STOOD ON THE LANDING WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND LOOKED AT THE EVIDENCE AS OFFICER RISKE POINTED IT OUT WITH HIS FLASHLIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU GET ANY CLOSER TO THE BODIES THAN THAT?
A: NO.
Q: YOU STAYED UP ON THE LANDING DID YOU?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: EVER GO DOWN THE STAIRS AND STEP INTO THE CRIME SCENE OR STEP OVER THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN?
A: LATER THAT MORNING AFTER I RETURNED FROM ROCKINGHAM, YES.
Q: NO, BUT I MEAN AT THIS TIME.
A: AT THIS TIME, NO.
Q: AND SO WHAT IS THE CLOSEST THAT YOU GOT TO THE BODIES OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN AT THAT TIME, 2:00 A.M. IN THE MORNING?
A: STANDING ABOVE THEM ON THE TOP OF THE LANDING....
Q: ...NOW, YOU INDICATED EARLIER, SIR, THAT OFFICER RISKE POINTED OUT BLOODY SHOEPRINTS TO YOU?
A: YES....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU SEE ANY OTHER BLOODY SHOEPRINTS IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A: I CAN NOT.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU WALK WITH OFFICER RISKE THEN TOWARDS THE ALLEY DOWN THE WALKWAY?
A: YES. HE DIRECTED US TO WALK TO THE RIGHT OF THE PRINTS AND YES, WE WALKED TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: AS YOU -- AS YOU ALL WALKED, DID OFFICER RISKE LEAD YOU?
A: YES.
Q: AND WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WITH YOU AS WELL?
A: HE WAS DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF ME, YES.
Q: DID YOU -- WAS HE -- DID OFFICER RISKE WARN YOU WHERE TO STAY AWAY FROM AS YOU WALKED DOWN THE WALKWAY TOWARDS THE ALLEY?
A: YES.
Q: AND DID YOU AVOID STEPPING IN ANY OF THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS OR BLOOD DROPS?
A: YES.
Q: AT SOME POINT GOING WESTBOUND ON THAT WALKWAY, SIR, DID THE SHOEPRINTS FADE OUT?
A: YES, THEY DID.
Q: AT WHAT POINT?
A: IT SEEMS BEFORE WE ENTERED INTO A STEP-DOWN AREA INTO A TROTH. I SAY TROTH. IT'S AN AREA THAT YOU STEP FOUR OR FIVE STEPS DOWN INTO AN AREA THAT LEVELS OFF FOR SEVERAL FEET, THEN STEPS LEAD UP ONCE AGAIN AND LEADS TO THE REAR GATE OF THE RESIDENCE ON THAT PATHWAY TO THE ALLEY.
Q: BY THE TIME YOU GOT TO THE REAR GATE THAT LEADS OUT INTO THE ALLEY, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY MORE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?
A: I DID NOT, NO.
Q: AS YOU WERE WALKING WESTBOUND IN THE ALLEY, WERE YOU FOLLOWING THOSE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS, THE PATH THAT THEY TOOK?
A: I WAS FOLLOWING OFFICER RISKE AND HE WAS POINTING OUT THINGS THAT WE SHOULD NOTE, AND I SAW THEM FADE AT A CERTAIN POINT.
Q: DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTE HOW MANY BLOOD DROPS TO THE LEFT OF THOSE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS YOU SAW BETWEEN THE LANDING AND THE REAR GATE?
A: I DIDN'T COUNT THEM. I WOULD SAY SEVERAL, BUT I DIDN'T COUNT THEM AND I NEVER WENT BACK TO COUNT THEM. SO I COULDN'T SAY ANYTHING MORE THAN SEVERAL.
Q: YOU DON'T -- DO YOU HAVE A PRESENT RECOLLECTION OF THAT, HOW MANY?
A: THREE TO SEVEN, THREE TO FIVE.
Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR GATE AREA, DID YOU MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS THERE?
A: OFFICER RISKE POINTED OUT SOME BLOOD ON THE GATE, SOME SMUDGING ON THE UPPER RAIL OF THE GATE. I NOTICED SOME BLOOD DROPPING ON THE CENTER OF THE GATE, THE MESH PART OF THE GATE.... THERE APPEARED TO BE EVIDENCE OF BLOOD ON THE BOTTOM RUNG OF THE GATE. I NOTICED A BLOOD SMUDGE AROUND THE DOOR TURN KNOB LOCK ON THE INTERIOR OR THE EAST SIDE OF THE GATE....
Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT IS THAT?
A: THIS IS THIS TROTH AREA THAT I WAS DESCRIBING AND THESE ARE THE STEPS LEADING OUT OF IT WESTBOUND UP TO THE REAR GATE, WHICH IN THIS PICTURE IS OPEN.
Q: OKAY.
AND IS THAT THE REAR GATE WHERE YOU JUST DESCRIBED SEEING THE BLOOD DROPPING ON THE LOWER REAR -- LOWER RUNG AND THE MIDDLE AND THEN THE SMUDGE ON THE LATCH?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT ELSE WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ON THAT GATE, SIR?
A: NOT AT THAT TIME, BUT LATER, I SAW A PARTIAL POSSIBLE FINGERPRINT THAT WAS ON THAT KNOB AREA.
Q: DID YOU THEN WALK THROUGH THE REAR GATE, SIR, WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: YES.
Q: AND DID YOU -- DID HE POINT ANYTHING OUT TO YOU IN THAT REAR DRIVEWAY?
A: YES. THERE WAS OTHER BLOOD DROPS AND CHANGE THAT WAS STREWN ON THE DRIVEWAY TO THE NORTH OF THE JEEP.
Q: WAS THERE SOME EFFORT MADE BY YOURSELF, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE TO AVOID TOUCHING THE BLOOD ON THE REAR GATE?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO? HOW DID YOU AVOID IT?
A: EITHER KEEP YOUR HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS OR KEEP YOUR HANDS ON YOUR NOTEBOOK AND YOU DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING.
Q: WAS THE REAR GATE STANDING OPEN WHEN YOU GOT TO IT?
A: IT WAS OPEN.
Q: DO YOU RECALL OFFICER RISKE POINTING OUT A BLOOD DROP NEAR -- JUST INSIDE THE REAR GATE?
A: I DON'T RECALL THAT, BUT HE COULD HAVE. HE POINTED OUT SEVERAL PIECES OF ITEMS IN THAT FIRST WALK THROUGH.
Q: AND IF HE HAD, WOULD YOU HAVE AVOIDED IT, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, WHAT IF ANYTHING DO YOU RECALL BEING POINTED OUT TO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE OUT AT THE REAR DRIVEWAY AREA?
A: THE DROPS OF BLOOD AND THE CHANGE AND HE DID MAKE A COMMENT THAT THEY DIDN'T CONTINUE INTO THE -- INTO THE ALLEY. I WENT INTO THE ALLEY AND OBSERVED THAT FOR MYSELF. I COULDN'T SEE ANY.
Q: AND HOW DID YOU LOOK IN THE ALLEY TO LOOK FOR BLOOD DROPS?
A: USING A FLASHLIGHT.
Q: THE FACT THAT YOU SAW A BLOOD DROP ON THE DRIVEWAY, BUT YOU WERE UNABLE TO OBSERVE ANY IN THE ALLEYWAY, WAS THAT SIGNIFICANT TO YOU?
A: YES.
Q: WHY?
A: I WOULD CONCLUDE THAT THE PERSON EITHER STOPPED BLEEDING OR ENTERED SOME FORM OF TRANSPORTATION....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR.
PEOPLE'S 48-H AND I, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS?
A: IT APPEARS TO BE THE SIZE OF BLOOD DROPS THAT I SAW ON THE REAR DRIVEWAY AND THIS APPEARS TO BE THE SMOOTH CONCRETE DRIVEWAY IN THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: IS THAT THE BLOOD DROP THAT WAS POINTED OUT TO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED TO US?
A: IT LOOKS LIKE MOST OF THE BLOOD DROPS THAT I SAW, YES.
Q: AND TO WHAT SIDE -- IF YOU'RE EXITING AS YOU WERE, AS YOU ARE EXITING THE REAR GATE WALKING WEST, COME OUT OF THE REAR GATE, THE JEEP WOULD BE TO WHAT SIDE OF YOU AND THE BLOOD DROP WOULD BE TO WHAT SIDE OF THE JEEP?
A: THE BLOOD DROP WOULD BE TO THE RIGHT OF THE JEEP WHICH WOULD BE TO THE NORTH OF THE JEEP AND THE JEEP WOULD BE TO THE LEFT OR THE SOUTH OF THE DROP AND THE --
Q: YEAH. OKAY. WAS THE JEEP TO THE SOUTH OF THE REAR GATE AREA?
A: YES....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND -- DO YOU SEE THE JEEP THAT YOU'VE BEEN DESCRIBING TO US, SIR?
A: YES. A BLACK JEEP CHEROKEE.
Q: AND IS THAT THE POSITION THAT YOU FOUND IT WHEN YOU WERE SHOWN THE LOCATION BY OFFICER RISKE IN THE COMPANY OF DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: YES.
Q: DO YOU RECALL THOSE GARBAGE CANS THERE, SIR?
A: I THINK THERE WAS SOME THERE. I DON'T RECALL THEIR EXACT DESCRIPTION, BUT I THINK THERE WERE GARBAGE CANS THERE, YES.
Q: FROM WHAT YOU RECALL OF THE CRIME SCENE OF THAT AREA THAT NIGHT, WAS THERE ROOM FOR A CAR TO PARK BETWEEN THE BLACK JEEP AND THE GARBAGE CANS?
A: I WOULDN'T THINK SO, NO.
Q: OR BETWEEN THE BLACK JEEP AND THAT WALL OR CURB THERE?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY TIGHT.
Q: YOU DESCRIBED CHANGE THAT YOU SAW, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: DO YOU RECALL WHERE IT WAS IN RELATION TO THE JEEP?
A: TO THE NORTH OF THE JEEP.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 48-K.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT, SIR?
A: THAT'S A DIME AND A PENNY. I BELIEVE THE DENOMINATION OF THE CHANGE THAT I SAW ON THE GROUND WAS I BELIEVE PENNIES, DIMES AND MAYBE A NICKEL.
Q: HOW FAR, IF YOU CAN RECALL, APPROXIMATELY WAS THAT CHANGE FROM THE BLOOD DROP THAT YOU SAW IN THE DRIVEWAY?
A: IT WAS IN THE SAME GENERAL AREA.
Q: AND WERE THERE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS IN THAT DRIVEWAY AREA?
A: I DID NOT SEE NONE OR SEE ANY, NO.
Q: AFTER YOU WENT OUT INTO THE REAR DRIVEWAY AND ATTEMPTED TO EXAMINE THE ALLEY FOR BLOOD, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A: WELL, AT THAT TIME, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE WALKED BACK OUT ONTO DOROTHY AND I REENTERED THE HOUSE TO START CATCHING UP ON THE NOTES FROM WHAT HAD BEEN SHOWN TO ME SO FAR AND WHAT I HAD OBSERVED.
Q: OKAY. NOW, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CATCH UP ON THE NOTES?
A: WELL, WE WERE WALKING AND I WAS TRYING TO MAKE -- TAKE MENTAL NOTES. AND WHEN I GOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING MYSELF UP-TO-DATE WITH THOSE NOTES BEFORE I LOST TRACK OF ANYTHING OFFICER RISKE BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION OR ANYTHING THAT I OBSERVED.
Q: NOW, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU CUSTOMARILY DO AT SCENES THAT YOU'RE HANDLING, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF MAKING THOSE NOTES?
A: TO START PRELIMINARY NOTES SO I KNOW WHO TO DIRECT AND TO WHERE TO GET MY LOGISTICAL ORGANIZATION SET IN MY MIND, WHAT I'M GOING TO NEED FOR THIS SCENE, WHAT I NEED FOR CRIMINALISTS, SEROLOGISTS, TRACE EVIDENCE, FINGERPRINTS, PHOTOGRAPHS, DO I NEED LIGHT TRUCKS, DO I NEED MORE PERSONNEL, ENLARGE THE SCENE, SHRINK THE SCENE. I HAVE TO CATCH UP WITH I HAVE, WHAT NEEDS TO BE PRESERVED, HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO THAT, HOW DO WE RECOVER IT.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF ITEMS THAT I HAVE TO START THINKING ABOUT FOR NOTIFICATIONS TO GET PEOPLE TO THE LOCATION TO DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO.
Q: OKAY. NOW, SO YOU WALKED BACK THROUGH THE HOUSE AGAIN ENTERING THROUGH THAT SAME -- EXCUSE ME. YOU REENTERED THE HOUSE THROUGH THE GARAGE; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: AND WAS THAT THE SAME PATH GOING TO THE RIGHT OF THE FERRARI?
A: YES.
Q: WHERE DID YOU -- DID YOU GO ALL -- LOOK THROUGHOUT THE HOUSE OR DID YOU WALK STRAIGHT TO THE LIVING ROOM AREA?
A: I WALKED TO THE LIVING ROOM AREA. WE HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY SHOWN THE UPSTAIRS AND THE BATHROOM.
Q: WHO SHOWED YOU THAT?
A: OFFICER RISKE.
Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT?
A: DURING THE INITIAL WALK THROUGH.
Q: OKAY. SO WHEN YOU WENT IN WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE, HE SHOWED YOU THE KITCHEN AREA, DID HE?
A: YES. HE DIDN'T -- WE DIDN'T WALK THROUGH THE KITCHEN AREA. WE WALKED TO THE RIGHT OF IT. HE SHOWED US -- HE JUST TOOK US UPSTAIRS AND SAID THERE WAS -- SHOWED US CANDLES BURNING IN THE BATH ROOM. THERE WAS CANDLES BURNING IN THE LIVING ROOM.
Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU NOTICE UPSTAIRS WHAT THE CONDITION OF THE MASTER BEDROOM WAS?
A: THERE WAS NOTHING DISTURBED THAT I SAW.
Q: OKAY. BY DISTURBED, DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF BLOOD?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF DRAWERS PULLED OUT?
A: NO.
Q: SEE JEWELRY THROWN AROUND?
A: NO.
Q: SEE CLOTHES THROWN AROUND?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS ON THE CARPETING?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: AND IN THE BATHROOM, DID YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE THINGS?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU LOOK INTO ANY OTHER ROOMS UPSTAIRS?
A: IF WE DID, WE DIDN'T ENTER THEM. WE JUST LOOKED INSIDE. THERE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANYTHING THAT OFFICER RISKE HAD DISCOVERED EARLIER AND THERE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANYTHING THAT WE NOTED.
Q: ANYTHING?
A: OF ANY UNUSUAL OR EVIDENTIARY VALUE, NOTHING THAT WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE EXTERIOR.
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU SAY NOTHING THAT WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE EXTERIOR, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT, SIR?
A: THERE WAS A LOT OF BLOOD EVIDENCE ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE HOUSE. SOMEONE HAD FLED THE SCENE THAT WAS BLEEDING. WE HAD TWO VICTIMS THAT HAD BLED QUITE A LOT.
Q: AND DID YOU SEE ANY OF THAT KIND OF BLOOD OR BLEEDING INSIDE THE HOUSE?
A: NOT AT ALL.
Q: ANY DIRT THAT APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN TRACKED INSIDE FROM OUTSIDE THE HOUSE?
A: NOT THAT I SAW, NO.
Q: OR LEAVES FROM THE FOLIAGE AROUND THE CRIME SCENE OUTSIDE THE HOUSE, DID YOU SEE THAT TRACKED INSIDE?
A: NO. NO.
Q: SO WHEN YOU WENT BACK INSIDE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE WENT OUT ONTO DOROTHY, DID YOU WALK STRAIGHT THROUGH AND SIT DOWN IN THE LIVING ROOM?
A: YES. I SAT DOWN ON THE EDGE OF THE COUCH NEAREST THE RIGHT SIDE OR THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE FRONT DOOR.
Q: OKAY. SO WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF GOING BACK INSIDE? WAS THAT TO DO ANOTHER SEARCH?
A: NO. I WANTED TO CATCH UP ON MY NOTES WHEN EVERYTHING WAS FRESH RIGHT THEN....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: FIRST OF ALL, SIR, I'M GOING TO SHOW TO YOU AND ASK YOU TO TELL ME IF THESE APPEAR TO BE THE NOTES YOU TOOK IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF FEBRUARY -- EXCUSE ME -- JUNE THE 13TH, 1994 AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
A: THOSE ARE MY NOTES, YES....
Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT WRITING, SIR?
A: YES, THIS IS MY WRITING.
Q: THAT'S YOUR -- ARE THESE THE NOTES YOU JUST IDENTIFIED FOR US, SIR?
A: EXCUSE ME?
Q: ARE THOSE THE NOTES THAT YOU'VE JUST IDENTIFIED AS HAVING TAKEN ON THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THEY'RE BEGINNING AT THE SCENE 2:10 HOURS, IS THAT 2:10 IN THE MORNING, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT DO YOU -- WHAT IS IT YOU'RE TELLING US THERE?
A: I'M JUST MAKING A NOTATION MY ARRIVAL AT THE SCENE WAS AT 0210 HOURS AND I CONTACTED SERGEANT ROSSI AS THE MORNING WATCH OR A.M. WATCH COMMANDER AT WEST L.A.
Q: AND THEN YOU PUT ITEM 1, OFFICER RISKE. AND IS THAT WHAT OFFICER RISKE REPORTED TO YOU, SIR, IN THAT FIRST ITEM?
A: THAT'S WHAT I CONCLUDED. IN OTHER WORDS, A CONDENSED VERSION, YES.
Q: NOW, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THESE NOTES? IS THIS A FORMAL REPORT THAT YOU'RE MAKING, SIR?
A NO. I MAKE NOTES LIKE THIS AND I USE A NUMERAL ON EACH ITEM AND THEN I CAN TAKE THAT NUMERAL AND TITLE A PAGE AND WRITE ABOUT THAT SUBJECT AND THEN I CAN GO BACK TO IT WITHOUT CONFUSING MYSELF.
Q: OKAY. HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THESE IN TERMS OF FORMAL OR ROUGH NOTES?
A: I'D CHARACTERIZE THESE AS MY FIRST IMPRESSION OR MY ROUGH NOTES.
Q: AND WITH RESPECT TO ITEM 2, WAS THAT INFORMATION PASSED ON TO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, AGAIN, WITH RESPECT TO ITEM 3 --
A: YES.
Q: -- IS THAT WHAT WAS PASSED ONTO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES.
Q: AT THE TIME THAT YOU RESPONDED TO THE SCENE, SIR, AT 2:10 A.M., DID YOU KNOW WHAT THE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS?
A: NO.
Q: DID OFFICER RISKE KNOW WHAT THE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS?
A: NO.
Q: YOU HAVE THE LAST LINE OF PARAGRAPH 3, POSS GSW.
A: YES.
Q: CAN YOU INTERPRET FOR US WHAT THAT MEANS?
A: IT MEANS POSSIBLE GUNSHOT WOUND....
Q: AND ITEM 4, YOU INDICATE HERE THAT THE RESIDENCE APPEARS UNTOUCHED, NO RANSACKING?
A THOSE ARE MY OBSERVATIONS.
Q: UH-HUH. AND IS THAT BASICALLY WHAT YOU'VE CONVEYED TO US HERE TODAY?
A YES, IT IS.
Q: WAS THAT SIGNIFICANT TO YOU, SIR?
A: I BELIEVE IT APPEARED WHATEVER HAPPENED WAS -- HAPPENED TO WHOEVER WAS INSIDE THE RESIDENCE DID NOT EXPECT TOBE ENCOUNTERED IN ANY FORM OF CONFRONTATION.
Q: UH-HUH. AND WHAT ABOUT WITH RESPECT TO WHETHER THE KILLER WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE AT ANY POINT AFTER THE MURDERS?
A: I BELIEVE ITEMS 3 AND MAYBE 4 WOULD INDICATE THAT THEY DID NOT....
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, MARCH 10, 1995
9:09 A.M....
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND....
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MS. CLARK:
Q: WHEN WE LEFT OFF, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WERE WRITING NOTES, ON THE LIVING ROOM COUCH, INSIDE THE CONDOMINIUM AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, BEFORE YOU BEGAN -- YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE AT A POINT TO SIT DOWN AND WRITE YOUR NOTES, WAS THERE ANY POINT YOU WERE AT THE CRIME SCENE UP UNTIL THAT TIME THAT YOU WERE ALONE?
A: NO.
Q: WHO WERE YOU WITH FROM THE MOMENT YOU ARRIVED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY WITH -- IN THE COMPANY OF DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IN HIS CAR, WHO WERE YOU WITH?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: OKAY. AFTER -- WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY WHO DID YOU MEET?
A: SERGEANT ROSSI AND OFFICER RISKE.
Q: OKAY.
WHO WAS IT THAT TOOK YOU UP TO -- UP THROUGH THE SHRUBBERY UP THE FRONT WALKWAY TO LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE?
A: OFFICER RISKE.
Q: WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WITH YOU AS WELL?
A: YES.
Q: AND AFTER THAT POINT YOU WENT -- I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED YOU WENT AROUND THROUGH THE BACK AND ENTERED THROUGH THE GARAGE; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: AND WHEN YOU DID SO, WHO WAS WITH YOU?
A: OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: AND AS YOU WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE AND STEPPED DOWN ON THE LANDING TO LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE, WHO WAS WITH YOU?
A: OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: AND WHEN YOU STEPPED OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND WALKED DOWN THE WALKWAY FOLLOWING THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS OUT TO THE ALLEY, WHO WAS WITH YOU?
A: OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: AND WHEN YOU EXITED THE REAR GATE AND WENT OUT TO THE DRIVEWAY AND OBSERVED THE BLOOD DROP AND THE CHANGE, WHO WAS WITH YOU?
A: OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO RE-ENTER THE LOCATION, TO RE-ENTER THE CONDOMINIUM, WHERE DID OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS GO?
A: I BELIEVE THEY WALKED BACK TO DOROTHY.
Q: OKAY. AT THAT POINT HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN AT THE CRIME SCENE?
A: MAYBE FIFTEEN MINUTES AT THE MOST.
Q: OKAY. AND WHAT WERE YOU WEARING AT THAT TIME?
A: A BLUE BLAZER, TAN SLACKS, WHITE SHIRT.
Q: OKAY. YOU THEN WENT INTO THE CONDOMINIUM; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: WHERE DID YOU GO TO?
A: THE COUCH DIRECTLY TO THE RIGHT OR THE SOUTH OF THE FRONT DOOR.
Q: WHEN YOU SAT ON THAT COUCH, WAS THE FRONT DOOR OPEN, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: WAS THERE ANYONE OUTSIDE THE LOCATION ON THE LANDING AT THAT TIME?
A: NO.
Q: AND WHEN YOU SAT DOWN TO BEGIN WRITING YOUR NOTES, WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU WERE SEPARATED FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES.
Q: AND AT THAT POINT HAD THE GLOVE AND THE CAP UNDERNEATH THE BUSH ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU FROM THE FRONT GATE AREA AND THEN AGAIN FROM THE LANDING AREA OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR BY OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES....
Q: NOW, THESE NOTES, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WERE THESE MEANT TO BE YOUR FINAL AND DEFINITIVE NOTE AS THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER AT THAT TIME FOR THIS CRIME SCENE?
A: NO. THIS WAS THE FIRST ROUND OF NOTES.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU SAY "THE FIRST ROUND OF NOTES," SIR, CAN YOU EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT MORE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A: MOST OF THESE NOTES WERE WHAT
OFFICER RISKE WAS POINTING OUT TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF, AND WHAT I OBSERVED.
Q: WHAT DID YOU INTEND TO DO -- WERE THESE NOTES ROUGH NOTES?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU INTEND TO DO WITH THESE NOTES LATER ON?
A USED THEM TO GO BACK TO THESE AREAS AND USE THEM AS A GUIDE IN WHAT TO GO BACK TO AND PRIORITIZE THEM.
Q: OKAY.
I THINK YOU INDICATED EARLIER THAT THE ITEM NUMBERS THAT YOU HAVE ON THIS LIST, 1, 2, 3, 4, ET CETERA, THAT EACH NUMBER WOULD BE REFERENCED LATER ON IN A MORE FULL DETAILED REPORT?
A: YES.
Q: AND HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT? WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
A: WELL, TAKING NOTES AT THE SCENE, IF IT WOULD HAVE GONE BEYOND THIS POINT, I WOULD HAVE, AS AN EXAMPLE, ITEM 3, I WOULD HAVE PUT AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. I WOULD HAVE WROTE ANY NOTES I WANTED ABOUT ITEM 3.
IF IT WAS THREE PAGES, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PAGE 1, 2, 3, AND AT THE BOTTOM, AND THEN I WOULD KNOW THAT THAT WAS THAT OBSERVATION OR THAT POINT THAT OFFICER RISKE POINTED OUT AND I WOULD BE ABLE TO ORGANIZE IT SOMEWHAT LIKE THAT....
Q: BUT YOUR OBSERVATIONS, SIR, CONCERNING WHAT YOU -- WELL, YOUR DESCRIPTION OF WHAT YOU WOULD DO WITH THESE ITEMS, DOES THAT PERTAIN TO ALL OF THE ITEMS ON THE NOTES THAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH NOW?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU BRIEFLY WENT UPSTAIRS AND SAW THE BEDROOMS YESTERDAY.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU SEE ROOMS THAT APPEARED TO BE CHILDREN'S ROOMS?
A: I DID, BUT I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.
Q: DID YOU KNOW WHAT -- DID YOU ASK WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CHILDREN OR WHERE THEY WERE OR DID YOU KNOW ALREADY?
A: OFFICER RISKE INFORMED ME THAT THERE WERE TWO CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE AND THEY HAD BEEN TAKEN TO WEST L.A. STATION.
Q: SO BY THE TIME YOU GOT THERE YOU KNEW THEY WERE ALREADY TAKEN CARE OF?
A: YES.
Q: AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT AS SOON AS YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE?
A: I BELIEVE IT WAS THE INITIAL EXPLANATION OF WHAT HAD TRANSPIRED BEFORE WE WALKED IN THE SCENE, YES.
Q: NOW, WAS OFFICER RISKE THE ONLY ONE THAT POINTED THINGS OUT TO YOU, SIR, OR WERE THERE OTHER OFFICERS THAT POINTED THINGS OUT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A: JUST OFFICER RISKE.
Q: SO YOU SAT DOWN AND YOU BEGAN TO WRITE THESE NOTES ON THE LIVING ROOM COUCH AND I THINK WE LEFT OFF AT 4.
AND YOU WERE DISCUSSING WITH US, SIR, THE FACT THAT YOU SAW NO EVIDENCE OF RANSACKING?
A: YES.
Q: WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU?
A: YES.
Q: AND TELL US WHY.
A: INITIALLY I WAS CONCERNED THAT POSSIBLY THE HOUSE WAS PART OF THE CRIME SCENE AND I WAS LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE THAT WOULD GIVE ME ANY INDICATION OF THAT.
Q: AND DID YOU FIND ANY?
A: NO, NOT IN THE FIRST WALK THROUGH.
Q: NOW, YOU FOUND "THE STEREO WAS PLAYING AND THE LIGHTS WERE LOW, THE CANDLES WERE LIT IN THE LIVING ROOM AND IN THE UPSTAIRS BATHROOM" ACCORDING TO YOUR NOTES?
A: YES.
Q: DID THAT INDICATE TO YOU ANYTHING TO YOU IN TERMS OF INFORMATION USEFUL TO THE INVESTIGATION OF THESE MURDERS?
A: AT THAT POINT I WOULD CONCLUDE THAT SOMEONE WAS HOME AT THAT TIME AND SOMEONE WAS PREPARING POSSIBLY TO TAKE A BATH, SOMEONE WAS LISTENING TO MUSIC....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 80, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A: I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS SINCE JUNE 13TH, BUT THAT LOOKS ABOUT THE SAME LOCATION. I CAN'T TELL WHAT THE WRITING IS, BUT THAT APPEARS TO BE WHAT I SAW AT HER FEET, YES.
Q: OKAY.
DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE WHAT YOU WERE ATTEMPTING TO DESCRIBE IN ITEM 5 OF YOUR NOTES?
A: YES.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1, PLEASE.
Q: OKAY. ITEM 6, THAT WAS THE ICE CREAM THAT YOU WERE DESCRIBING?
A: YES.
Q: YOU INDICATE IN THIS THAT IT SAYS, "NOT YET MELTED WHEN OFFICER RISKE ENTERED THE RESIDENCE"?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS TOLD TO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT WAS IT THAT HE INDICATED TO YOU WITH RESPECT TO THE CONDITION OF THAT ICE CREAM THAT YOU OBSERVED?
A: THE BEST I CAN REMEMBER IT WAS JUST THAT IT APPEARED THAT IT HADN'T MELTED YET OR IT WAS IN THE PROCESS, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW HE WOULD HAVE CONCLUDED THAT.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU SAW THE ICE CREAM TWO HOURS LATER, YOU EARLIER INDICATED TO US THAT IT STILL LOOKED LUMPY TO YOU?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT COLOR DID IT APPEAR TO BE?
A: TAN, LIGHT BROWN.
Q: DID THAT ICE CREAM HAVE ANY PARTICULAR EVIDENTIARY SIGNIFICANCE TO YOU?
A: ONLY IN THAT THE HOUSE WAS SO NEAT, IT SEEMED TO BE THE ONLY ITEM OF FOOD OR ANYTHING THAT LOOKED -- THAT I WOULD SAY LOOKED OUT OF PLACE, BEING AN INTRUDER INTO THE HOUSE, IN OTHER WORDS, NEVER BEING IN THE HOUSE BEFORE.
Q: YOU BEING THE INTRUDER THAT IS?
A: YES. YES, MA'AM.
Q: OKAY.
ITEM 7, "CHILDREN, TWO, SLEEPING IN UPSTAIRS BEDROOM AWOKEN BY OFFICERS."
WAS THAT INFORMATION GIVEN TO YOU BY ANOTHER OFFICER?
A: YES.
Q: BY?
A: OFFICER RISKE....
Q: OKAY. ITEM NO. 8, WAS THAT SOMETHING YOU OBSERVED, SIR?
A: NO. OFFICER RISKE TOLD ME THAT.
Q: WERE YOU ABLE TO OBSERVE IT FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT, EITHER AT THE FRONT GATE OF THE WALKWAY WHEN YOU WERE WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, OR FROM THE LANDING OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR WHERE YOU OBSERVED THE CRIME SCENE IN THE COMPANY OF OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: NO. I DID NOT OBSERVE THAT FROM THAT LOCATION.
Q: SO THAT WAS INFORMATION GIVEN TO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES.
Q: ITEM NO. 9. THOSE WERE THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS THAT YOU DESCRIBED TO US EARLIER?
A: YES.
Q: WAS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU PERSONALLY OBSERVED?
A: YES.
Q: AND WAS IT ALSO POINTED OUT TO YOU BY OFFICER RISKE?
A: YES, IT WAS.
Q: ITEM NO. 10, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO IN THAT ITEM?
A: YES, A CANVASS IS THE TERM WE USE TO DESCRIBE OFFICERS GOING TO NEIGHBORS, LOCATIONS AROUND THE CRIME SCENE, TO SEE IF THEY HEARD OR SAW ANYTHING AT ANY TIME DURING THE EVENING THAT COULD HAVE LED UP TO THE TIME OF THE MURDERS.
Q: AND AS OF THE TIME YOU WERE WRITING THOSE NOTES DID YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION FROM ANY OF THE NEIGHBORS NEARBY ABOUT WHAT MAY HAVE TRANSPIRED THAT NIGHT?
A: NONE.
Q: SO YOU HAD NO IDEA THEN AT THE POINT -- AT THAT POINT WHETHER THERE WERE ANY EYEWITNESSES OR EAR WITNESSES, PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE HEARD THINGS OR SEEN THINGS, THAT MAY HAVE BEEN RELEVANT TO THE MURDERS?
A: I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY, NO....
Q: ALL RIGHT. THIS IS THE THIRD PAGE OF YOUR NOTES, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: ITEM NO. 13, "AT THE REAR GATE ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE." IS THAT NORTH? "N SLASH S"; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: NORTH SIDE.
Q: "TWO BLOOD SPOTS AT THE BOTTOM INSIDE OF THE GATE." IS THAT WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AS HAVING SEEN IN YOUR TESTIMONY EARLIER YESTERDAY?
A: YES, IT IS.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU SAY, "THIS AREA MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHERE DOG WAS KEPT," WHEN YOU SAY "THIS AREA," WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
A: THE PATHWAY ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, IT HAD GATES AT BOTH ENDS, AND SINCE THE DOG WAS LOOSE AND I HAD ALREADY BEEN TOLD THAT, I JUST MADE A NOTE THAT THIS COULD BE THE AREA THAT THE DOG WAS KEPT. IN OTHER WORDS, IF IT DIDN'T LIVE IN THE HOME.
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU SAY THE NORTH -- THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOUSE, YOU MEAN THAT WALKWAY THAT LEADS FROM THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE TO THE REAR ALLEY?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU WERE SPECULATING TO YOURSELF THAT MIGHT BE WHERE THE DOG WAS KEPT?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND THEN IT SAYS, "SUSPECT RAN THROUGH THIS AREA. SUSPECT POSSIBLY BITTEN BY DOG," QUESTION MARK. WHEN YOU SAY "SUSPECT RAN THROUGH THIS AREA," THAT WAS BASED ON WHAT?
A: WELL, THERE WAS THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS --
Q: UH-HUH.
A: -- WESTBOUND AWAY FROM THE LANDING AND THE VICTIMS. THERE WAS BLOOD DROPS TO THE LEFT OF THOSE SHOEPRINTS.
I PUT THAT IN MY NOTES TO MAKE MYSELF REMEMBER THAT A DOG WAS PROBABLY IN THAT AREA AND FOR MYSELF TO WONDER IF MAYBE THE DOG BIT THE SUSPECT.
Q: OKAY.
SO THAT WAS JUST YOUR SPECULATION THEN, POSSIBLY BITTEN BY THE DOG?
A: YES, MA'AM. THAT IS WHY I PUT A QUESTION MARK THERE.
Q: OKAY. NO ONE HAD TOLD YOU THAT, IN OTHER WORDS?
A: NO.
Q: ITEM NO. 14, "THE REAR GATE, POSSIBLE BLOOD SMUDGE ON UPPER RAIL OF GATE."
A: YES.
Q: AND IS THAT WHAT YOU DESCRIBED TO US AS HAVING SEEN EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY YESTERDAY?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHEN YOU SAY, "THE UPPER RAIL OF THE GATE," CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT?
DESCRIBE THE AREA YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
A: YES. THE GATE IS COMPRISED OF LARGE TWO-INCH TUBING THAT APPEARED TO BE BENT AND INTO NINETY DEGREES TO CREATE THE OUTSIDE -- OUTSIDE OF THE GATE AND THEN SOME TYPE OF SECURITY MESH AND RAIL IN THE MIDDLE, AND THAT LARGE TUBULAR PART OF THE GATE IS WHERE THE SMUDGE WAS ON TOP....
Q: ITEM NO. 15, YOU HAVE, "REAR GATE INSIDE, DEAD BOLT TURN KNOB TYPE," AND WHAT ARE YOU DESCRIBING THERE, SIR?
A: THE TYPE OF CONVENTIONAL KNOB ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE GATE IS A LOCKING MECHANISM AND ON THE INSIDE OF THE GATE WOULD BE A TURN KNOB.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE KEY WOULD BE USED ON THE EXTERIOR AND A TURN KNOB. IF YOU ARE IN THE INSIDE, YOU WOULD NOT NEED A KEY, YOU WOULD JUST TURN A KNOB, SIMILAR TO A DEAD BOLT STYLE ON A HOUSE.
Q: OKAY.
DID OFFICER RISKE TELL YOU IN WHAT CONDITION HE FOUND THAT GATE WHEN HE FIRST RESPONDED TO THE CRIME SCENE?
A: I DON'T RECALL IF HE TOLD US. I SAW THAT IT WAS OPEN.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU FIRST WALKED THROUGH THAT REAR GATE FOR THE FIRST TIME WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WAS IT STANDING OPEN, SIR, OR WAS IT PROPPED OPEN?
A: IT WASN'T WIDE OPEN, BUT IT WAS OPEN MAYBE SEVERAL INCHES.
Q: OKAY.
A: TO A FOOT, I SUPPOSE.
Q: SO DID IT HAVE TO BE PUSHED IN ORDER FOR YOU TO EXIT? DID OFFICER RISKE PUSH IT OPEN WHEN YOU EXITED?
A: IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN PUSHED OPEN WITH A PEN OR A FLASHLIGHT. IT WASN'T PUSHED OPEN WITH THE BARE HAND.
Q: OKAY.
AND THEN YOU SAID HERE, "POSSIBLE BLOOD SMUDGE AND VISIBLE FINGERPRINT." CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THERE? I BELIEVE YOU ADDRESSED THAT EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU SAW THAT CAUSED YOU TO WRITE THAT?
A: YES. ON THE INSIDE WHERE I DESCRIBED THE DEAD BOLT STYLE LOCK ON THE INSIDE OR THE EAST SIDE OF THE GATE, THE -- ON THE TURN -- TURN KNOB THERE LOOKED -- IT IS BRASS, BRASS-PLATED, IT LOOKED TO BE BLOOD SMUDGE ON THAT LEADING TO WHAT I SAW MIGHT BE A POSSIBLE FINGERPRINT OR A PARTIAL FINGERPRINT.
Q: OKAY. AND SO YOU MADE A NOTE OF THAT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. ITEM NO. 16, "BLOODY PAW PRINTS OF LARGE DOG LEADING FROM THE RESIDENCE SOUTHBOUND ON THE SIDEWALK APPROXIMATELY SIXTY FEET SOUTH OF THE RESIDENCE."
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING THERE?
A: YES. COMING OUT OF THE FRONT OF THE WALKWAY WHERE ALL THE BLOOD WAS -- WAS FLOWING DOWN TOWARDS THE SIDEWALK, THERE WAS CANINE PAW PRINTS LEADING SOUTHBOUND ON THE WALK TOWARDS DOROTHY AND I APPROXIMATED THAT THE PAW PRINTS WERE VISIBLE FOR SIXTY FEET.
Q: OKAY. AND THAT WAS YOUR PERSONAL OBSERVATION, SIR?
A: YES, IT WAS.
Q: AND ITEM 17 YOU WROTE, "SKI MASK, ONE GLOVE BY FEET OF MALE VICTIM."
AND AGAIN CAN YOU TELL US, WAS THAT YOUR PERSONAL OBSERVATION?
A: YES, IT WAS, BOTH DIRECTED BY OFFICER RISKE AND MY PERSONAL OBSERVATION.
Q: SO THAT WAS A COMBINATION OF OFFICER RISKE'S INFORMATION TO YOU AND YOUR OWN PERSONAL OBSERVATION?
A: YES....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU DESCRIBED IN YOUR NOTES, SIR, ITEM NO. 17, THE SKI MASK.
BASED ON YOUR OBSERVATION AT THAT TIME, WAS THAT -- LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
HAD YOU GONE UP TO AND HELD IT AND LOOKED AT IT WHEN YOU WROTE THAT NOTE, SIR?
A: NO, I DID NOT.
Q: WHAT KIND OF OBSERVATION DID YOU HAVE OF THE OBJECT YOU WERE DESCRIBING AT THE TIME YOU WROTE THAT NOTE, ITEM 17?
A: WELL, IT APPEARED TO BE WHAT I USUALLY DESCRIBE AS A SKI CAP OR A SKI MASK AND IT LOOKED DULL, CLOTH AND THAT IS WHAT I CONCLUDED IT COULD POSSIBLY BE, AND THE GLOVE WAS FAIRLY OBVIOUS, THAT IT APPEARED TO BE A LEATHER TYPE GLOVE.
Q: SO AT THE POINT THAT YOU WROTE THAT NOTE, YOU HAD NOT WALKED UP INTO THE CRIME SCENE AND STEPPED UP TO THE BUSH TO LOOK AT IT?
A: NO, I HADN'T.
Q: THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT WE SHOWED YOU YESTERDAY OF YOU POINTING TO THE ITEMS UNDERNEATH THAT BUSH, WHEN WAS THAT TAKEN, SIR?
A: I BELIEVE THAT WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND 7:00 OR 7:15 THAT MORNING.
Q: AT THAT POINT, SIR, HAD YOU ALREADY BEEN TO ROCKINGHAM AND COME BACK TO BUNDY?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: SO AT THE POINT THAT YOU WROTE THE SKI MASK, HOW CLOSE HAD YOU GOTTEN TO THAT ITEM?
A: NO CLOSER THAN THE LANDING WHERE I OBSERVED THE TWO VICTIMS FROM WHERE THE FIRST SHOEPRINT --
Q: THAT WAS THE CLOSEST OBSERVATION YOU HAD AT THAT POINT?
A: YES....
Q: OKAY.
SO ITEM NO. 17 IS BASED ON YOUR OBSERVATION OF THESE TWO ITEMS THAT YOU GOT A LOOK AT FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THE GATE WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND FROM THE LANDING WITH OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: YES, MA'AM....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU GOT AS FAR AS ITEM NO. 17 DOCUMENTING YOUR OBSERVATION OF A SKI MASK, ONE GLOVE BY THE FEET OF THE MALE VICTIM.
HAD YOU COMPLETED YOUR NOTES AT THAT POINT? WERE YOU ALL DONE?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED TO INTERRUPT YOU?
A: WELL, BEFORE -- WHILE I WAS STILL WRITING MY NOTES, DETECTIVE ROBERTS ENTERED, HE HAD JUST ARRIVED ON SCENE AND HE CAME INTO THE -- INTO THE LIVING ROOM, HE WAS DIRECTED BY DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, AND HE SAID, "CAN YOU UPDATE ME OR BRING ME UP TO SPEED?"
I DID THAT BRIEFLY. I TOLD HIM -- I INFORMED HIM WHAT I HAD SEEN IN THE HOUSE. I TOOK HIM ONTO THE LANDING VERY QUICKLY, POINTED OUT THERE WAS A GLOVE, A CAP, THERE WAS A MALE VICTIM, A FEMALE VICTIM, A MENU.
I SHOWED HIM THE SHOEPRINTS. I WALKED HIM BACK THE PATH. I SHOWED HIM ON THE GATE THE BLOOD. AND THIS IS AT THIS TIME IS WHEN DETECTIVE ROBERTS AND I BOTH SAW THE SMUDGE AND THAT POSSIBLE VISIBLE FINGERPRINT.
Q: LET ME INTERRUPT ONE MINUTE.
DETECTIVE ROBERTS, WHO IS THAT?
A: DETECTIVE ROBERTS IS A DETECTIVE ASSIGNED TO WEST L.A. HOMICIDE WHO I NORMALLY WORK WITH AS A PARTNER.
Q: OKAY.
SO HE CAME INTO THE RESIDENCE. DO YOU KNOW HOW HE GOT INTO THE RESIDENCE?
A: YES. HE WAS DIRECTED WHERE TO GO THROUGH THE GARAGE.
Q: OKAY. AND HE CAME IN AND THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW HIM AT THAT SCENE WAS WHEN YOU WERE WRITING NOTES SITTING ON THE COUCH INSIDE THE RESIDENCE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. AT THAT POINT, WHEN YOU SAW DETECTIVE ROBERTS, YOU HAD BEEN AT THE SCENE FOR HOW LONG?
A: I STILL SAY THAT WOULD BE FIFTEEN MINUTES WHEN I WAS WRITING MY NOTES. THE WALK THROUGH WITH HIM COULDN'T HAVE TAKEN MORE THAN THREE OR FOUR MINUTES.
Q: OKAY.
AFTER YOU WALKED HIM THROUGH THE REAR GATE OUT TO THE DRIVEWAY AREA, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I WALKED HIM OUT THROUGH THE DRIVEWAY. I POINTED OUT THE BLOOD DROP, CHANGE. HE ALSO LOOKED IN THE ALLEY FOR BLOOD DROPS AS WE WALKED THAT WAY. HE COULD SEE NONE.
AND HE CONTINUED BACK TO DOROTHY TO WALK OUT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND STAND WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: OKAY.
SO DID YOU BOTH THEN WALK OUT THERE TO THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION?
A: NO. I RETURNED TO THE INTERIOR OF THE RESIDENCE TO FINISH WHAT I WAS PREVIOUSLY DOING, WRITING MY NOTES.
Q: OKAY.
SO WHERE WAS IT THAT YOU PARTED COMPANY WITH DETECTIVE ROBERTS?
A: IN THE ALLEY.
Q: WHEN YOU WENT BACK INSIDE, HOW DID YOU ENTER THE RESIDENCE THE SECOND TIME?
A: THE SAME WAY. I PASSED THE FERRARI INTO THAT LOWER DOOR UP THE STAIRS.
Q: WHERE DID YOU GO TO?
A: I WENT TO THE SAME -- SAME COUCH. I SAT ON THE EDGE OF THE COUCH.
Q: AND YOU -- DID YOU -- WHAT DID YOU DO THERE?
A: I FINISHED THE NOTES THAT LED UP TO
ITEM 17.
Q: OKAY. AND AT ITEM 17 HAD YOU COMPLETED YOUR NOTES?
A: NO.
Q: WERE YOU AGAIN INTERRUPTED?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ENTERED FROM THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE AND HE CAME IN AND INFORMED ME THAT ROBBERY/HOMICIDE WOULD BE TAKING OVER THE INVESTIGATION.
Q: OKAY.
AND HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN SITTING ON THE COUCH WRITING WHEN YOU WERE INTERRUPTED THAT SECOND TIME BY DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: MAYBE ANOTHER FIVE MINUTES, MAYBE AS MUCH AS TEN.
Q: AND WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS INFORMED YOU THAT ROBBERY/HOMICIDE WAS GOING TO TAKE OVER THE CASE, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I TOLD RON OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, I SAID, "LET ME FINISH THESE NOTES AND THEN I WILL TURN THEM OVER TO YOU."
Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
A: HE SAYS, "OKAY, FINISH THE NOTES AND THEN GIVE THEM TO ME AND I WILL GIVE THEM TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE."
Q: AND DID YOU THEN COMPLETE YOUR NOTES?
A: YES.
Q: SO ITEM 17, WAS THAT MEANT TO BE YOUR LAST ENTRY IN YOUR NOTES AT THAT TIME?
A: NO.
Q: YOU DIDN'T COMPLETE YOUR NOTES?
A: I DID NOT, NO.
Q: AND WHY NOT?
A: BECAUSE THE CASE WAS NO LONGER MINE.
Q: OKAY.
WHAT POINT WERE YOU AT WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS INTERRUPTED YOU IN WRITING? HAD YOU FINISHED ITEM 17 YET OR HAD YOU -- WERE YOU IN THE MIDDLE?
A: WELL, I DON'T KNOW -- AT THE END OF
ITEM 17 I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH SEVERAL OTHER DETAILS ON SOME OF THESE ITEMS AND STARTED SETTING UP WHO I NEEDED TO CONTACT AT THIS SCENE TO BE ABLE TO COMPLETE THIS CRIME SCENE.
Q: OKAY.
BUT INSTEAD OF THAT, YOU JUST STOPPED AT THAT POINT?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
A: I WENT BACK OUT THROUGH THE GARAGE SOUTH ON THE ALLEY, DOWN DOROTHY TO BUNDY, AND REMAINED IN THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE OR THE STREET AT THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY AND WAITED FOR ROBBERY/HOMICIDE'S ARRIVAL.
Q: OKAY.
SO DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS COME IN AND INFORM YOU ROBBERY/HOMICIDE WAS GOING TO TAKE OVER AND THEN EXIT AGAIN?
A: YES. I THINK HE MADE AN INDICATION THAT HE HAD TALKED TO CHIEF FRANKLE AND HE THOUGHT THAT IT WOULD BE BEST IF ROBBERY/HOMICIDE HANDLED THE CASE.
Q: OKAY.
WHEN HE INFORMED YOU OF THAT, SIR, HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN AT THE CRIME SCENE?
A: ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
Q: DID HE TURN AROUND AND LEAVE THEN AND YOU SAT AND FINISHED YOUR NOTES AT THAT POINT?
A: YES.
Q: FOR HOW LONG BEFORE YOU EXITED THE RESIDENCE?
A: OH, I DON'T THINK I -- I PROBABLY HAD JUST TWO OR THREE ITEMS LEFT THAT WAS CURRENTLY ON MY MIND THAT I NEEDED TO PUT DOWN THAT I THOUGHT WERE IMPORTANT.
Q: OKAY. SO HOW LONG IN TERMS OF TIME WAS THAT?
A: OH, A MINUTE, TWO MINUTES AT THE MOST.
Q: SO YOU REMAINED A MINUTE OR TWO MINUTES AFTER DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ADVISED YOU RHD WAS TAKING OVER THE CASE?
A: RIGHT. I JUST PUT DOWN THE THOUGHTS THAT I HAD WHEN HE WALKED IN AND I STOPPED.
Q: AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I JUST WENT OUT AND WAITED FOR ROBBERY/HOMICIDE ON THE STREET.
Q: WHEN YOU SAY YOU WAITED ON THE STREET, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE ON THE STREET YOU WERE WAITING?
A: IT WAS THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, PROBABLY JUST INSIDE THAT YELLOW TAPE OR JUST OUTSIDE, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH IT WAS.
Q: WHO WERE YOU WITH AT THAT TIME?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, THE COMMANDING OFFICER OF WEST L.A. DETECTIVES. I BELIEVE A PHOTOGRAPHER HAD ARRIVED, I'M NOT POSITIVE ON THAT, AND THEN THERE IS POLICEMEN, A SUPERVISOR, UNIFORMED PERSONNEL.
Q: QUITE A FEW OFFICERS AROUND BY THAT TIME, WERE THERE?
A: YES. I BELIEVE DETECTIVE ROBERTS WAS STILL THERE AND DETECTIVE NOLAN WAS STILL THERE.
Q: AND WERE THEY ALL STANDING WITH YOU OUTSIDE?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT DID DO YOU WHEN YOU CAME BACK OUTSIDE AND WENT TO THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY?
A: NOTHING....
Q: NOW, WERE YOU STILL HOLDING YOUR NOTES WHEN YOU CAME BECOME OUTSIDE?
A: I GAVE THEM TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IMMEDIATELY.
Q: OKAY. OUTSIDE AT THE INTERSECTION THERE?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU EVER GO BACK TO YOUR CAR?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: THE CAR THAT YOU DROVE IN WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: YES.
Q: WHEN WAS THAT?
A: PROBABLY SOME TIME SHORTLY THEREAFTER AFTER COMING OUT OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
A: PUT MY JACKET IN THE CAR.
Q: SO YOU TOOK YOUR JACKET OFF AT THAT POINT?
A: YES....
Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: WHO IS THAT?
A: DENNIS FUNG, A CRIMINALIST.
Q: HE IS POINTING TO AN AREA ON THE GATE THERE. CAN YOU TELL US, FIRST OF ALL, IS THAT THE REAR GATE AT THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A: YES, IT IS.
Q: OKAY.
AND THE AREA HE IS POINTING TO, SIR, IS THAT -- DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE AREA HE IS POINTING TO?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT AREA IS THAT?
A: THAT IS THE AREA I REMEMBER THAT THE SMUDGE WAS -- APPEARED TO BE A BLOOD SMUDGE....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LOCATION, SIR?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND WHAT IS THAT?
A: THAT IS THE NORTH WALKWAY LEADING TOWARDS -- TOWARD THE ALLEY THAT WOULD BE GOING DUE WEST TOWARDS THAT REAR GATE.
Q: OKAY. SO IS THAT THE REAR GATE?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: OKAY.
AND THE POSITION THAT THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS TAKEN FROM, IS THAT INSIDE THE REAR GATE FACING THE ALLEY OR IS IT FACING EASTBOUND TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION?
A: IT IS FACING THE ALLEY FROM THE INSIDE.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 53-B.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO WHAT APPEARS TO BE MARKED AS 115 AND 116 ITEMS -- ITEM NUMBERS. CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND WHAT IS IT?
A: THOSE ARE THE BLOOD DROPS THAT I SAW AT THE BOTTOM OF THE RAIL.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1, PLEASE.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND ARE THOSE THE BLOOD DROPS THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED IN YOUR NOTES IN
ITEM NO. 13, SIR?
A: YES, IT IS.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: WE HAVE A CLOSER-UP SHOT HERE, SIR.
DO YOU SEE WHAT IS SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 106? DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT, SIR?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: TELL US HOW?
A: THAT APPEARS TO BE THE BLOOD SMUDGE THAT I SAW ON THE UPPER PORTION OF THAT GATE FROM THE INSIDE.
Q: AND IS THAT THE -- THE APPEARANCE OF IT AS YOU RECALL?
A: YES.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1, PLEASE.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WHAT KIND -- WERE YOU USING ANY KIND OF FLASHLIGHT TO MAKE THE OBSERVATIONS THAT YOU DOCUMENTED IN YOUR NOTES?
A: I USED THAT SMALL FLASHLIGHT THAT I KEPT ON MY BELT, YES.
Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU WERE STANDING OUT IN THE STREET, I THINK YOU INDICATED, THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, WAITING FOR ROBBERY/HOMICIDE TO ARRIVE?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND THERE WERE -- AND WHO DID YOU SAY WAS WITH YOU, SIR?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, I BELIEVE
DETECTIVE ROBERTS WAS THERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG, DETECTIVE NOLAN WAS THERE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN HE LEFT, LIEUTENANT SPANGLER.
THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOMEBODY THAT ARRIVED FROM ROBBERY/HOMICIDE, OTHER THAN THE DETECTIVES, BUT I'M NOT SURE.
I REMEMBER SEEING LIEUTENANT -- I BELIEVE HE IS LIEUTENANT ROGERS THERE AT SOME TIME, BUT I'M NOT SURE IT WAS THAT EARLY.
Q: AT THAT POINT, SIR, DID YOU HAVE -- WERE THERE ANY POLICE OFFICERS GUARDING THE PERIMETER, THAT IS, GUARDING THE CRIME SCENE TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM WALKING IN?
A: YES, THE CRIME SCENE WAS WHAT WE WOULD CALL SEALED OFF.
Q: WAS THERE ANYONE INSIDE THE CRIME SCENE TAPE AT THAT POINT?
A: NO.
Q: DO YOU RECALL HOW MANY BLACK AND WHITE UNITS WERE THERE?
A: I WAS TOLD THERE WAS A BLACK AND WHITE UNIT THE STREET TO -- THE FIRST EAST-WEST STREET TO THE NORTH OF DOROTHY AT THE ALLEY, AND I BELIEVE ONE AT THE INTERSECTION OF BUNDY AND THAT STREET.
I KNOW THERE WAS A SUPERVISOR AND A UNIT AT DOROTHY AND BUNDY. I SAW A BLACK AND WHITE DIRECTLY TO THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY IN THE ALLEY, AND THAT IS ALL I CAN RECALL.
Q: HOW MANY COMMANDING OFFICERS WERE PRESENT AT THAT TIME?
A: LIEUTENANT SPANGLER WAS THE ONLY COMMANDING OFFICER.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AT SOME POINT, SIR, DID YOU MAKE CONTACT WITH ANY DETECTIVE FROM ROBBERY/HOMICIDE?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THAT CONTACT WAS MADE?
A: STANDING IN THE SAME LOCATION ON THE STREET.
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU GO BACK INTO THE CRIME SCENE, THAT IS, UP TO THAT GATE WHERE YOU HAD GONE EARLIER WITH OFFICER RISKE OR INTO THE HOUSE OR UP ONTO THE LANDING AGAIN?
A: I NEVER RETURNED TO THAT CRIME SCENE.
Q: AND SO YOU WAITED OUTSIDE UNTIL ROBBERY/HOMICIDE CAME?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND WHEN YOU SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER, THAT WAS WHERE?
A: ON THE STREET, THE SAME LOCATION.
Q: HAD YOU EVER MET HIM BEFORE?
A: NO, I HADN'T.
Q: WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU MET?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT POINT?
A: I WAS INTRODUCED TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, AS WAS RON PHILLIPS. RON PHILLIPS BRIEFED HIM ON WHAT HAD BEEN SEEN AND DONE AT THAT POINT AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER -- EXCUSE ME -- DETECTIVE PHILLIPS LED DETECTIVE VANNATTER THROUGH A CRIME SCENE WALK THROUGH.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU GO WITH THEM?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: YOU REMAINED OUTSIDE?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU EVER GO BACK INTO THE CRIME SCENE BEFORE GOING TO ROCKINGHAM LATER THAT MORNING?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: SO AFTER THE POINT THAT YOU LEFT THE RESIDENCE AFTER COMPLETING YOUR NOTES, YOU NEVER WENT BACK IN AGAIN UNTIL LATER IN THE MORNING AFTER HAVING GONE TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES, YOU ARE CORRECT. I DID RETURN AT ABOUT 7:00, 7:15, YES.
Q: SO YOU REMAINED OUT IN THE INTERSECTION AND DID YOU MEET ANYONE ELSE FROM ROBBERY/HOMICIDE AT THAT POINT?
A: YES, DETECTIVE TOM LANGE.
Q: OKAY.
AND WERE YOU STILL STANDING OUTSIDE AT THE INTERSECTION WHEN HE ARRIVED?
A: YES, I WAS.
Q: WHERE WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS OR DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A: I BELIEVE THEY HAD RETURNED.
DETECTIVE LANGE ARRIVED FIFTEEN, TWENTY MINUTES AFTER THEM, MAYBE A LITTLE LONGER. THEY WERE BACK OUT ON THE -- IN FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN DETECTIVE LANGE ARRIVED?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS LED HIM THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE WALK THROUGH.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU GO WITH THEM?
A: NO.
Q: WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: I REMAINED ON THE STREET.
Q: OKAY.
SO THEN THE CRIME SCENE WAS TOURED BY OFFICERS BEFORE YOU ARRIVED, SIR; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND THEN AGAIN BY OFFICERS AFTER YOU HAD BEEN THERE?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: NOW, ONCE RHD -- ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DIVISION HAD COME IN TO TAKE OVER THE CASE, WHAT WERE YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES?
A: MY RESPONSIBILITIES AT THAT POINT WAS TO FOLLOW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS' ORDERS. HE SAID WE WERE GOING TO REMAIN AT THE SCENE AND IF WE COULD BE OF ASSISTANCE, AND IF NOT, WE WOULD BE RELIEVED.
Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT DID YOU LEAVE THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A: YES, WE DID.
Q: WAS THIS AFTER DETECTIVE LANGE HAD BEEN GIVEN A WALK-THROUGH BY WAS IT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: YES.
Q: WAS IT AFTER THAT POINT?
A: YES, IT WAS....
Q: OKAY.
SO AT APPROXIMATELY FIVE O'CLOCK YOU ALL DROVE OVER TO 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM.
AND HOW LONG DID -- IS THAT RIGHT?
A: I BELIEVE IT IS 360.
Q: 360?
A: 360, YES.
Q: THANK YOU.
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET THERE?
A: FIVE, TEN MINUTES.
Q: CAN YOU RECALL WHERE YOU PARKED WHEN YOU GOT TO THE LOCATION?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU DRIVE UP ROCKINGHAM FROM SUNSET, DRIVE NORTH ON ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES, WE DID.
Q: AND AS YOU DID SO, WERE YOU LOOKING FOR THE ADDRESS OF 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES. WELL, IT IS -- IT IS PRETTY EASY OFF SUNSET. YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING NORTH OF SUNSET IS 100 AND GOES UP, SO IT IS GOING TO BE ABOUT THREE OF THE BLOCKS UP IN THAT AREA.
Q: UH-HUH. OKAY.
SO DID YOU HAVE SOME IDEA OF WHERE TO LOOK WHEN YOU WERE DRIVING UP THERE?
A: YES.
Q: AND AS YOU DROVE UP ROCKINGHAM, DID ANYTHING ATTRACT YOUR ATTENTION?
A: I NOTICED A WHITE VEHICLE PARKED BY THE DRIVEWAY ON -- ON ROCKINGHAM.
Q: OKAY.
AND DID YOU KNOW AT THE TIME YOU SAW THE WHITE VEHICLE THAT THAT WAS PARKED IN FRONT OF 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM?
A: WELL, I THINK -- I THINK THE RESIDENCE LOOKED SOMEWHAT FAMILIAR. I REMEMBERED FROM '85 IT WAS A CORNER RESIDENCE, VERY NICE, SPACIOUS FRONT YARD WITH A WALL, I REMEMBERED THAT, WITH BRICK.
Q: UH-HUH.
A: AND WHEN I PASSED IT, I THINK I CONCLUDED THAT THIS IS -- THIS IS THE ADDRESS.
Q: AT THE TIME THAT YOU FIRST SAW THAT WHITE VEHICLE, WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT IT THAT DREW YOUR ATTENTION OR WAS IT JUST THAT THERE WAS A WHITE CAR PARKED THERE?
A: NO. I WAS ON THE PASSENGER SIDE AND WE PASSED THE VEHICLE AND IT WAS A WHITE FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLE. I JUST -- I DIDN'T MAKE A -- MUCH OF A NOTE OF IT; I JUST NOTICED IT.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, WHERE DID YOU PARK? YOU DIDN'T PARK, ACTUALLY. WHERE DID RON PARK?
A: HE TURNED RIGHT OR EASTBOUND ON ASHFORD AND PARKED JUST WEST OF THE ASHFORD GATE.
Q: WERE YOU IN THE LEAD, YOUR CAR?
A: YES.
Q: AND DO YOU KNOW ON WHAT SIDE OF THE ASHFORD GATE THAT YOU PARKED?
A: I PARKED ON THE WEST SIDE....
Q: OKAY.
SO YOU WERE ALL STANDING THERE TOGETHER AT THAT -- AT THE CALL BOX RINGING THE BELL?
A: YES, IN THAT GENERAL AREA.
Q: OKAY.
AND AFTER THE TEN OR FIFTEEN MINUTES OF RINGING WITHOUT RECEIVING AN ANSWER, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I BELIEVE -- I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ON HIS CELLULAR PHONE AND VANNATTER AND LANGE REMAINED AT THE GATE AND I -- I WALKED WESTBOUND DOWN ASHFORD TOWARDS THE INTERSECTION OF ROCKINGHAM AND ASHFORD....
Q: AND THEN WHAT?
A: I WAS JUST -- JUST LOOKING. I NOTICED SOME LIGHTS ON IN THE RESIDENCE THAT WERE ON THE ENTIRE TIME WE WERE THERE, AND I STARTED WALKING SOUTHBOUND ON ROCKINGHAM....
RKED A LITTLE ASKEW OR A LITTLE -- TO ME IT LOOKED PARKED A LITTLE UNUSUAL FOR THAT TYPE OF PARKING....
Q: WHEN WE LAST LEFT OFF, YOU WERE WALKING DOWN TOWARDS THE BRONCO; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: OKAY.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: TWO, PLEASE. PEOPLE'S 62-A.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE VEHICLE THAT'S BEING SHOWN TO YOU IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE VEHICLE I SAW PARKED BY THE ROCKINGHAM GATE THAT MORNING.
Q: OKAY.
WAS IT PARKED IN THAT LOCATION, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST APPROACHED THE BRONCO, YOU APPROACHED IT FROM WHAT END?
A: NORTH OF THE BRONCO.
Q: OKAY.
SO THAT IF YOU -- AS YOU WALKED TOWARDS IT, YOU WERE FACING THE FRONT OF THE BRONCO; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A: I WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE BRONCO AND I MADE THE -- I NOTICED THAT IT WAS JUST PARKED JUST A LITTLE ASKEW, A LITTLE STRANGELY. IT LOOKED LIKE THERE WAS NO DIFFICULTY IN PARKING THERE, BUT YET IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS PARKED RATHER HAPHAZARDLY.
Q: CAN YOU BE A LITTLE MORE SPECIFIC, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A: WELL, IT APPEARED THAT IT WASN'T PULLED TO THE CURB EVENLY. THE REAR END WAS JUTTING OUT A LITTLE BIT AND THE TIRES WEREN'T STRAIGHT IN THE FRONT COMPLETELY.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 62-E.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
SHOWING YOU THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR, IF YOU CAN TELL US WHETHER THAT APPEARS TO BE THE SAME FORD BRONCO THAT WE JUST SAW IN THE PREVIOUS PHOTOGRAPH.
A: IT APPEARS TO BE, YES.
Q: AND THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU SEE IT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU SAW IT ON JUNE THE 13TH AT APPROXIMATELY 5:00 A.M.?
A: YES. I CAN'T SEE IT FROM THE FRONT, BUT THE REAR APPEARS TO BE ABOUT THE SAME POSITION, YES.
Q: NOW, THE BRONCO THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LOOKING AT HERE, IS THAT THE SAME BRONCO THAT YOU PASSED ON THE WAY TO PARKING ON ASHFORD?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND WHEN YOU NOTICED THAT IT WAS PARKED A LITTLE BIT ASKEW OR A LITTLE BIT HAPHAZARDLY, WERE YOU LOOKING AT IT FROM THE FRONT OR FROM THE REAR?
A: FROM THE FRONT.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I WALKED CLOSER TO THE BRONCO, AND AS I APPROACHED TO THE LEFT OF THE BRONCO, WHICH WOULD BE EAST, ON THE PARKWAY, I SAW A BROKEN PIECE OF WOOD. IT WAS WHITE WOOD WITH A FRESHLY EXPOSED PIECE OF WOOD.
Q: WHY DID THAT DRAW YOUR ATTENTION?
A: WELL, IT LOOKED OUT OF PLACE. THERE WAS -- THIS IS A PARKWAY. THERE WAS NOTHING THAT RESEMBLED THIS. THERE WAS NO GARBAGE. THERE WAS NO LEAVES, LIMBS, ANYTHING. IT WAS JUST ODD AND I DID NOT SEE AT ANY TIME ANY TYPE OF WOOD FENCE ANYWHERE WHERE I CAME UP ROCKINGHAM OR ANYWHERE AROUND THE PREMISES....
Q: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 107, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US -- YOU JUST DESCRIBED A WOODEN STICK THAT YOU SAW NEAR THE BRONCO SHORTLY AFTER 5:00 A.M. ON JUNE THE 13TH.
DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN TO YOU IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A: YES. IT APPEARS TO BE A -- DIRECTLY EAST OF THE RIGHT FRONT TIRE OF THE BRONCO ON THE PARKWAY.
Q: I AM SORRY.
IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU SAW IT ON THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH?
A: YES, I BELIEVE SO.
Q: AND THE NEXT PHOTOGRAPH ALSO BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL... SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 108, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT ITEM?
A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE PIECE OF WOOD WITH THE EXPOSED WOOD.
Q: THAT YOU SAW?
A: YES.
Q: WAS THERE ANY PAINT ON THAT WOOD?
A: YES. IT APPEARED TO BE OLD WHITE PAINT.
Q: THERE APPEARS TO BE SOME KIND OF A SMUDGE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT, A DARKER COLOR IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT PIECE OF WOOD?
A: YES.
Q: BASED UPON YOUR RECOLLECTION, YOUR OBSERVATION OF THAT PIECE OF WOOD, SIR, DID THERE APPEAR TO BE ANY BLOOD ON IT?
A: NO.
Q: DO YOU -- THAT SMUDGE THAT YOU SEE THERE, DO YOU RECALL SEEING THAT DARKER SPOT ON THE WOOD WHEN YOU OBSERVED IT?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND WHAT WAS IT?
A: TO ME, IT LOOKED LIKE THE PATH OF A IRON NAIL THAT HAD RUSTED AND CAUSED RUST TO BE LEFT ON THE WOOD.
Q: UH-HUH.
WAS THERE ANY OTHER DEBRIS AROUND THAT PIECE OF WOOD ON THE LAWN?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO....
Q: AFTER YOU MADE THE OBSERVATION OF THAT PIECE OF WOOD, WHAT ELSE DID YOU DO?...
A: THEN I WALKED TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE AND I WAS JUST LOOKING AT THE VEHICLE AS I WAS WALKING DOWN THE LENGTH OF IT.
Q: OKAY.
WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR?
A: OH, I DIDN'T KNOW. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I HAD SEEN.
Q: SO YOU'RE JUST LOOKING AT IT?
A: YES.
Q: AND AT THAT POINT, WERE YOU WAITING FOR SOMEBODY -- WHAT WERE YOU DOING OTHER THAN LOOKING AT THE CAR? WERE YOU WAITING FOR SOMETHING?
A: I WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO ANSWER THE RESIDENCE RINGER OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TO OBTAIN SOME INFORMATION ON THE WHEREABOUTS OF ANYONE INSIDE IF HE COULD GET A -- I WAS WAITING FOR THEM TO GET SOMEONE TO ANSWER THE DOOR.
Q: AND THE GATE, THE ROCKINGHAM GATE THAT THE BRONCO WAS PARKED JUST NORTH OF, WAS THAT CLOSED?
A: YES, IT WAS.
Q: AND THE ASHFORD GATE, WAS THAT CLOSED?
A: YES, IT WAS.
Q: AND THE OTHER DETECTIVES, WERE THEY AROUND THE ASHFORD GATE?
A: I BELIEVE VANNATTER AND LANGE WERE IN THAT GENERAL AREA AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS THE LAST TIME I SAW HIM WAS STANDING IN THE STREET WITH A CELLULAR PHONE....
Q: ...ALL RIGHT.
YOU SAID YOU WALKED ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE BRONCO. AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT SIDE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID YOU NOTICE ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE BRONCO AS YOU LOOKED AT IT?
A: WELL, AS I WAS WALKING PAST THE VEHICLE, I NOTICED A SMALL SPOT ABOVE THE DOOR HANDLE OF THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE.
Q: WHY DID THAT ATTRACT YOUR ATTENTION?
A: WELL, THE VEHICLE, AS YOU CAN SEE, IS WHITE AND IT STOOD OUT SOMEWHAT. IT WAS A VERY CLEAN VEHICLE.
Q: UH-HUH.
AND WERE YOU ABLE -- AS YOU LOOKED AT THE CAR DOOR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE CLEARLY WHAT IT WAS AT FIRST GLANCE?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU NOTICED IT?
A: I TOOK THE SMALL FLASHLIGHT OFF MY BELT AND I USED THAT FLASHLIGHT TO LOOK AT THE SPOT.
Q: THE SAME FLASHLIGHT YOU USED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A: YES, MA'AM....
Q: NOW, SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 62-C, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A: THAT'S THE SMALL SPOT THAT I SAW ABOVE THE DOOR HANDLE.
Q: UH-HUH.
WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE TO YOU?
A: WELL, AT FIRST, IT JUST LOOKED LIKE A SPOT OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN. WHEN I TOOK THE FLASHLIGHT OUT, I LOOKED AT IT AND IT LOOKED REDDISH BROWN AND TRANSLUCENT QUALITIES TO IT AND APPEARED TO BE DRY BLOOD.
Q: AFTER YOU SAW THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: THEN I CONTINUED TO LOOK FARTHER AROUND THE VEHICLE. AT ONE POINT, I ACTUALLY GOT DOWN ON MY HANDS AND KNEES AND LOOKED IN THE COMPLETE DOOR AREA, AND DOWN ON THE DOOR SILL I FOUND THREE OR FOUR SMALL LITTLE LINES WITH THE SAME COLOR AND QUALITIES THAT WERE EXHIBITED ABOVE THE DOOR HANDLE.
Q: OKAY.
AND THOSE -- WHAT AREA OF THE DOOR? WAS THAT THE DRIVER'S DOOR, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHAT AREA OF THE DRIVER'S DOOR WOULD THAT BE THAT YOU SAW THOSE THREE OR FOUR LINES THAT LOOKED THE SAME COLOR AS THE SMUDGE SHOWN IN 62-C?
A: AS YOU OPEN THE DRIVER'S DOOR, THE AREA THAT THE DRIVER'S DOOR WOULD OPEN TO EXPOSE AT THE BOTTOM WOULD BE CALLED THE DOOR SILL, AND THAT EDGE THAT IS EXPOSED TO THE EXTERIOR BUT STILL PART OF THE BOTTOM OF THE SILL, IT WAS ON THAT PART.
Q: OKAY.
WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU SAW ALL THAT?
A: I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME, BUT I CONTINUED TO LOOK AT THE VEHICLE TO SEE IF I COULD OBSERVE ANYTHING ELSE....
Q: WHERE DID YOU LOOK?
A: I ATTEMPTED TO LOOK IN THE VEHICLE WITH MY FLASHLIGHT. IT WASN'T VERY HIGH POWERED AND THERE WAS TINTED WINDOWS. SO THAT WAS SOMEWHAT DIFFICULT.
AT ONE POINT, I CUPPED MY FLASHLIGHT AND TRIED TO GET THE BEAM TO FOCUS AS MUCH AS I COULD, AND I SAW A PACKAGE IN THE REAR CARGO AREA.
MS. CLARK: OKAY.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 62-F.
Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A: WELL, I BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT I SAW IN THE REAR, YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHAT, IF ANY, IDENTIFYING INFORMATION WAS ON THOSE PACKAGES OR ANY OF THEM?
A: I SAW "O.J. SIMPSON" ON THE ADDRESS OR "O.J. SIMPSON ENTERPRISES" AND "ATTENTION CATHY."
Q: UH-HUH.
AND DID THAT CAUSE YOU TO FORM SOME OPINION ABOUT WHO OWNED THE CAR, SIR?
A: WELL, IT SEEMED TO BE MR. SIMPSON'S OR SOMEONE THAT WORKED FOR HIM.
Q: WHAT ELSE DID YOU SEE IN THE REAR CAR -- NEVER MIND. STRIKE THAT.
ALL RIGHT.
AS YOU MADE -- AFTER YOU MADE THOSE OBSERVATIONS OF THE PACKAGES IN THE REAR CARGO AREA, DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING ELSE IN THE REAR CARGO AREA?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: WHAT WAS THAT?
A: THERE WAS A SHOVEL THAT WAS APPROXIMATELY FIVE FEET LONG. IT WAS -- I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS A POINTED OR A FLAT-NOSE SHOVEL, BUT IT WAS TURNED POINT DOWN; IN OTHER WORDS, THE CUTTING EDGE DOWN, AND THERE WAS A LARGE PIECE OF HEAVY GAUGE PLASTIC THAT WAS TUCKED IN A SIDE CARGO AREA IN THE REAR PART OF THE VEHICLE.
Q: CAN YOU SEE ANYTHING IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH THAT DEPICTS WHAT YOU'VE JUST DESCRIBED?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND WHERE IS THAT?
A: IN THE LEFT CORNER OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH, I SEE THE SHOVEL THAT I'M DESCRIBING.
Q: AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THE PLASTIC, SIR?
A: THERE'S A POCKET AREA TO THE -- ON THE PASSENGER SIDE OF THE VEHICLE.
Q: IN THE REAR CARGO AREA?
A: IN THE REAR CARGO AREA, AND IT WAS FOLDED AND IT WAS TUCKED IN THAT AREA.
Q: TUCKED IN THE POCKET?
A: IT WAS A POCKET OR A NETTING. I'M NOT SURE WHICH IT WAS. IT SEEMED TO BE HELD THERE....
Q: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 109, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A: YES. THAT IS THE SHOVEL I DESCRIBED.
Q: IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU SAW IT, SIR, WHEN YOU LOOKED THROUGH THE REAR CARGO WINDOW OF THE BRONCO IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH?
A: YES, IT IS.
Q: AFTER YOU MADE THOSE OBSERVATIONS, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A: I WENT BACK TOWARDS ASHFORD AND I -- I DIDN'T WANT TO YELL TO THE OTHER DETECTIVES, BUT I WANTED TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT SOME OF THE OBSERVATIONS I MADE.
Q: AND WHO DID YOU CONTACT?
A: I SAW DETECTIVE LANGE UP TOWARDS THE INTERSECTION OF ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM, AND I BELIEVE I WALKED THAT AREA. I DIDN'T GET REAL CLOSE, BUT I GOT CLOSE ENOUGH WHERE I DIDN'T HAVE TO USE AN ELEVATED VOICE TO COMMUNICATE, AND I GOT DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE TO COME DOWN TO THE BRONCO.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU CONTACT -- MADE CONTACT WITH DETECTIVE LANGE, WHERE WAS HE?
A: I THINK HE WAS ON ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM INTERSECTION MORE INBOARD OF ROCKINGHAM ON ASHFORD, BUT I COULD VISIBLY SEE HIM AS I WAS WALKING TOWARDS THAT DIRECTION.
Q: UH-HUH.
AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WHERE WAS HE WHEN YOU MADE CONTACT WITH HIM?
A: I DON'T RECALL SEEING HIM INITIALLY WHEN I TURNED AROUND. I BELIEVE HE WAS BACK TOWARDS THE GATE.
Q: SO YOU CONTACTED DETECTIVE LANGE FIRST AT THE CORNER OF ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM?
A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND AFTER YOU TOLD HIM WHAT YOU'D SEEN, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A: WELL, I BELIEVE I SAID, "I THINK I SAW SOMETHING ON THE BRONCO," AND VANNATTER AND LANGE AND I BOTH WALKED DOWN THERE AT THE SAME TIME.
Q: SO YOU ALL WALKED DOWN, THE THREE OF YOU TOGETHER?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
A: I SHOWED THEM THE OBSERVATIONS. FIRST, THE -- AS WE WERE WALKING, I DESCRIBED THE WAY THE BRONCO FIRST KIND OF GOT MY ATTENTION. THEN I SHOWED THEM THE PIECE OF WOOD AND THEN THE SPOT THAT I THOUGHT WAS BLOOD, THE FOUR SMALL MARKS THAT I THOUGHT WAS BLOOD. I DESCRIBED WHAT WAS IN THE VEHICLE AND TRIED TO USE MY FLASHLIGHT AND GIVE THEM THE ABILITY TO SEE THOSE ITEMS.
Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: AT SOME POINT, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WALKED DOWN THE STREET AND JOINED --
Q: TOWARDS YOU?
A: YES....
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: WELL, AT THAT POINT, DETECTIVE LANGE WALKED BACK UP TOWARDS ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM AND I BELIEVE EVENTUALLY TO THE FRONT GATE AT ASHFORD AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND I STOOD FOR A MOMENT SEVERAL FEET IN FRONT OF THE BRONCO AND WE DISCUSSED EXACTLY WHAT WE HAD OBSERVED AND WHAT IMPACT IT WOULD HAVE ON WHAT WE WERE ATTEMPTING TO DO....
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: AT SOME POINT, A CONCLUSION WAS MADE BY DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT WE WOULD HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO GET INTO THE COMPOUND AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU ASKED DETECTIVE VANNATTER IF HE WANTED YOU TO GO OVER THE WALL?
A: I THINK I MADE THE STATEMENT AND THEN HE JUST SAID, "OKAY."
Q: OKAY.
SO THAT DECISION WAS UP TO HIM TO MAKE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
A: I JUMPED THE WALL JUST TO THE LEFT OR EAST OF THE ASHFORD GATE, LANDED ON THE OTHER SIDE, CAME AROUND AND RELEASED THE HYDRAULIC ARM TO THE GATE ON ASHFORD AND LET THE OTHER DETECTIVES INTO THE LOCATION.
Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND VANNATTER WERE SOMEWHAT AHEAD WALKING AND THEN DETECTIVE LANGE AND THEN MYSELF TRAILING AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WENT TO THE FRONT DOOR....
Q: WHAT HAPPENED -- YOU ALL WENT TO THAT FRONT DOOR AREA, AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
A: I WAS STANDING TO THE REAR OF THE GROUP AND I'M NOT SURE IF VANNATTER OR PHILLIPS WERE KNOCKING. BUT FOR A COUPLE MINUTES, WE STOOD THERE AND KNOCKED AT THE FRONT DOOR AND RECEIVED NO RESPONSE....
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: VANNATTER AND PHILLIPS LEFT THE FRONT DOOR AREA, AND WE ALL TURNED AND PHILLIPS AND VANNATTER STARTED WALKING BACK TOWARDS THE FRONT GATE AND THEN ENTERED A WALKWAY THAT WENT ALONGSIDE TO THE HOUSE ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY ANIMALS?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHEN DID YOU DO THAT?
A: RIGHT ABOUT WHEN WE TURNED. I BELIEVE WHEN WE TURNED TO WALK IN THAT PATH.
Q: AND THAT PATH, IS IT PARALLEL TO ASHFORD OR ROCKINGHAM? THE PATH?
A: I AM SORRY?
Q: THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK, IS IT PARALLEL TO ASHFORD OR ROCKINGHAM?
A: IT'S PARALLEL TO ASHFORD....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
IF YOU WOULD, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU STEP DOWN. USING THE POINTER, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE SHOW US THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK WITH DETECTIVES PHILLIPS, VANNATTER AND LANGE AFTER YOU KNOCKED ON THE FRONT DOOR AND GOT NO RESPONSE.
WHEN I SAY YOU, I MEAN THEY, ALL OF YOU.
A: THIS AREA THAT'S MARKED AS "ENTRANCE," THAT IS THE FRONT DOOR AREA. WE TURNED AROUND AND WALKED NORTHBOUND UNTIL WE COME TO THIS PATH THAT IS BEIGE IN COLOR ON THIS CHART AND IT'S SOMEWHAT IN KIND OF AN "S", CIRCLES AROUND TO THE REAR OF THE -- REAR OF THE RESIDENCE. IT CONTINUES AROUND AND STARTS TO GO SOUTHBOUND UP SOME STAIRS INTO A PATIO AREA NEXT TO THE POOL....
Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT -- WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THE REAR YARD AREA, WERE YOU SEARCHING OR LOOKING AROUND? WHAT WERE YOU DOING?
A: I WAS REALLY DOING NOTHING. I WAS JUST FOLLOWING THESE DETECTIVES THAT WERE WALKING ALONG THIS PATHWAY.
Q: OKAY.
WHAT DID YOU SEE?
A: I SAW THE LAWN AND THE PATHWAY AND WALKING INTO THE POOL AREA, JUST SAW THE POOL AREA. NOTHING -- NOTHING UNUSUAL.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: WE WALKED ONTO THE PATIO AREA. I THINK -- I THINK PHILLIPS AND VANNATTER PROBABLY SLOWED SOMEWHAT AND LOOKED AROUND, AND I DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY VERBALIZE, BUT I KIND OF ASSUMED THAT SOMEONE SAW SOMETHING DOWN IN THIS AREA THAT THEY WANTED TO LOOK AT OR KNOCK ON. I DON'T KNOW.
THEY WALKED PAST THESE STEP AREA DOWN ONTO THIS AREA BY THE POOL AND DOWN TOWARDS THIS ROOM THAT IS DENOTED ON THIS CHART BY KAELIN'S ROOM (INDICATING)....
Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT TO THE AREA MARKED -- WHEN THE FOUR OF YOU GOT TO THE AREA MARKED KAELIN'S ROOM, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS LOOK TOWARDS THE DOOR AND HE WENT UP TO IT, AND I THINK ABOUT AT THE SAME TIME HE WAS ABOUT TO KNOCK, I COULD TELL IT WAS A GLASS PANE DOOR AND THERE WAS WOOD LOUVERS ON THE INSIDE AND SOME OF THEM WERE OPEN.
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS COULD -- HE SAW SOMETHING, HE TURNED BACK AND SAID, "THERE'S A GUY ON THE BED," OR, "THERE'S SOMEONE LYING ON THE BED," SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND HE KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER, SOMEONE CAME TO THE DOOR....
Q: WHO IS THAT?
A: KATO KAELIN.
Q: AND AFTER HE ANSWERED THE DOOR, DID SOMEONE SPEAK TO HIM?
A: YES. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: AND DID YOU HEAR WHAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SAID TO HIM?
A: I WAS STANDING BEHIND AND ABOVE AND I HEARD -- I HEARD HIM ASK MR. KAELIN IF HE KNEW -- IF MR. SIMPSON WAS IN THE HOUSE, AND THEN I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS PHILLIPS OR ONE OF THE OTHER DETECTIVES MAKING A COMMENT THAT, "THERE MIGHT BE SOME SORT OF AN EMERGENCY, WE NEED TO KNOW," OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
Q: AND WHAT DID -- AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I HEARD MR. KAELIN DIRECT ALL OF US TO MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER'S ROOM WHICH HE POINTED EAST DOWN THAT WALKWAY AMONG THE BUNGALOWS AND SAID SOMETHING LIKE, "MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER, ARNELLE'S ROOM IS DOWN THIS WAY," AND I THINK HE POINTED OR DIRECTED THEM DOWN THAT WAY....
Q: AND WHEN HE DIRECTED THE -- WHEN HE DIRECTED ALL OF YOU TO ARNELLE'S ROOM, HE POINTED THAT OUT, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND VANNATTER AND LANGE WALKED IN THAT DIRECTION.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: WELL, I CAME DOWN THESE STEPS AND I STAYED WITH MR. KAELIN....
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A: I ENGAGED MR. KAELIN IN CONVERSATION WHILE THE FIRST -- I BELIEVE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I ASKED HIM IS, "DO YOU MIND IF I LOOK AROUND?" HE REPLIED, "NO."...
Q: UH-HUH. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I ASKED MR. KAELIN IF THE WHITE BRONCO IN FRONT -- WHO IT BELONGS TO, AND HE SAID IT WAS O.J.'S, AND I ASKED HIM IF HE DROVE IT LAST NIGHT. BUT I BELIEVE BEFORE HE ANSWERED THAT, I THINK I ASKED HIM ANOTHER QUESTION.
Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A: IF ANYTHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED LAST NIGHT....
Q: SO WHEN YOU ASKED HIM DID ANYTHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN THE NIGHT BEFORE, WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
A: HE SAID ABOUT 10:45 P.M. THE PREVIOUS NIGHT, I BELIEVE HE SAID HE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE. HE SAID HE HEARD A CRASH OR A THUMP ON HIS WALL. HE THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AN EARTHQUAKE AND HIS PICTURE SHOOK.
Q: AND DID HE POINT OUT TO THE PICTURE OR THE AREA ON THE WALL WHERE HE HEARD THAT CRASH?
A: YES.
Q: WHERE DID HE POINT TO?
A: HE POINTED TO A PICTURE TOWARDS THE RIGHT SIDE OF HIS BED, WHICH WOULD BE THE WEST SIDE OF HIS BED. HIS BED WAS -- THE HEAD WAS ON THE SOUTH WALL AND THE FOOT WAS AT THE NORTH END OF THE ROOM....
Q: OKAY. NOW, DID MR. KAELIN TELL YOU WHAT TIME HE HEARD THAT CRASHING SOUND OVER HIS BED ON THE WALL OVER HIS BED?
A: HE SAID ABOUT 10:45 P.M.
Q: AND DID HE POINT OUT THE PICTURE THAT HE SAID MOVED WHEN HE HEARD THAT CRASHING SOUND OR THAT THUMPING SOUND?
A: HE POINTED OVER TOWARDS THE WALL, MADE A GESTURE AS HE WAS TALKING....
Q: ...DID YOU HAVE SOME FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH MR. KAELIN?
A: YES. WELL, MR. KAELIN OFFERED -- HE DESCRIBED THAT WHEN HE HEARD THAT NOISE, INITIALLY THOUGHT IT WAS AN EARTHQUAKE, BUT NOTHING ELSE HAPPENED. SO HE WENT OUT TO INVESTIGATE.
Q: DID HE TELL YOU WHERE HE WENT TO INVESTIGATE?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT THAT?
A: HE WENT AROUND THE NORTH SIDE PAST THE POOL, NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE AND WALKED THE SAME PATHWAY THAT WE HAD USED TO APPROACH HIS -- HIS ROOM.
Q: AND THEN WHAT?
A: HE SAID HE SAW A LIMO IN THE DRIVEWAY AND THEN HE PROCEEDED TOWARDS THE AREA WHERE HE WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE, BUT HE DIDN'T DESCRIBE ANYTHING ANY FARTHER.
Q: NOW, THE AREA ON THE WALL WHERE HE INDICATED HE HEARD THE THUMPS, COULD YOU TELL WHERE THAT -- THE EXTERIOR OF THAT POINT WOULD BE ON THE PROPERTY?
A: NO.
Q: AND DID HE TELL YOU HOW TO GET TO THAT POINT ON THE EXTERIOR PART OF THE PROPERTY?
A: NO, HE DIDN'T.
Q: SO AFTER HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD GONE OUT TO INVESTIGATE THE THUMPS AND GOTTEN TO THE DRIVEWAY AND SEEN THE LIMO DRIVER, DID HE TELL YOU WHERE HE WENT AFTER THAT POINT?
A: I DON'T RECALL THAT HE DID, NO.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I ASKED MR. KAELIN IF HE WOULD COME WITH ME, AND WE EXITED HIS ROOM AND I LOOKED TOWARDS THE MAIN HOUSE AND I SAW THERE WAS AN OPEN DOOR, THE REAR OFF THE PATIO....
Q: SO YOU WALKED IN THROUGH THE REAR DOOR?
A: YES.
Q: AND THAT WAS WITH MR. KAELIN?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT DID HAPPEN NEXT AFTER YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE?
A: WHEN I FIRST WALKED IN, I NOTICED THIS AREA, YOU STEP DOWN WHERE THERE'S A LARGE BILLIARD TABLE AND THEN DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF WHERE WE CAME IN, THERE'S A BAR AREA WITH FOUR OR FIVE BAR STOOLS. AND I ASKED MR. KAELIN TO SIT IN ONE OF THOSE STOOLS AND RELAX AND SOMEBODY WOULD TALK TO HIM IN A MINUTE....
Q: AFTER YOU GOT -- YOU PUT KATO -- YOU GOT -- YOU TOOK KATO TO THE BAR AREA, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I LEFT HIM AT THAT LOCATION AND I TRIED TO FIND WHERE THE DETECTIVE -- THE OTHER THREE DETECTIVES HAD WALKED TO.
Q: DID YOU FIND THEM?
A: I WALKED TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR. THERE'S A HALLWAY TYPE AREA. AND AS I WALKED PAST THERE, THERE WAS AN OPEN DOORWAY, AND I SAW ALL THREE DETECTIVES IN THE KITCHEN AREA....
Q: AND COULD YOU SEE WHAT THEY WERE DOING IN THERE?
A: I BELIEVE ONE DETECTIVE WAS ON THE PHONE, THAT DETECTIVE NOT BEING VANNATTER. I BELIEVE PHILLIPS WAS ON THE PHONE, BUT I CAN'T BE POSITIVE ABOUT THAT.
Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS OR DETECTIVE LANGE BEFORE LEAVING THE FRONT DOOR?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT WAS THE -- YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE -- YOU WERE WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, LANGE AND VANNATTER AT THE POINT THAT YOU FIRST WENT TO MR. KAELIN'S ROOM I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND WAS THAT THE LAST TIME THAT YOU SPOKE TO THEM OR YOU WERE WITH THEM BEFORE YOU WENT OUT THE FRONT DOOR? DID YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH THEM BEFORE LEAVING KATO IN THE BAR AND GOING OUT THE FRONT DOOR?
A: YES. I MADE A COMMENT TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
Q: UH-HUH.
AND WHAT WAS THAT COMMENT, SIR?
A: SAID, "PHIL, WOULD YOU TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR?"
Q: AND OTHER THAN THAT, DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DETECTIVE LANGE OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: NO, NOT AT THAT TIME.
Q: SO AFTER THAT REMARK TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, YOU WENT OUT THE FRONT DOOR?
A: YES.
Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU DO THAT?
A: I WAS TRYING TO ORIENT MYSELF FROM WHERE THIS SOUTH WALL OF KATO'S BEDROOM COULD BE LOCATED ON THE PROPERTY.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
YOU INDICATED EARLIER, SIR, THAT WHEN YOU LOOKED INSIDE THE REAR CARGO AREA OF THE BRONCO, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US A SHOVEL AND A PIECE OF PLASTIC. DO YOU RECALL THAT, SIR?
A: YES, MA'AM....
Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.
CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT I'M SHOWING YOU HERE, PEOPLE'S 113?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT IS IT?
A: THAT LOOKS LIKE THE SHOVEL THAT I SAW IN THE REAR CARGO AREA OF THE BRONCO....
COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL MONDAY, 3/13/95.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, MARCH 13, 1995
9:20 A.M.
THE COURT: ...ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND....
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MS. CLARK:
Q: LET'S SEE. I THINK WHERE WE LEFT OFF ON FRIDAY, SIR, YOU WERE SHOWING THE JURY THE SHOVEL AND THE PLASTIC AND THE WOOD, THE PIECE OF WOOD THAT YOU SAW NEAR THE BRONCO.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: NOW, FIRST OF ALL, THE PLASTIC, YOU INDICATED -- WHERE DID YOU RECOVER THAT FROM?
A: THE --
Q: WHAT PART OF THE BRONCO?
YOU DIDN'T RECOVER IT.
WHERE DID YOU SEE IT?
A: I SAW IT IN THE RIGHT SIDE OR THE PASSENGER SIDE OF THE REAR CARGO AREA, ALONG THE SIDE OF THE VEHICLE CARGO AREA.
Q: AND THAT WAS -- WAS IT INSIDE SOMETHING?
A: IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS IN SOME SORT OF A POCKET.
Q: OKAY. YOU DID NOT RECOVER THAT ITEM?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: AND DID YOU RECOVER THE SHOVEL?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: DID YOU RECOVER THE WOOD?
A: NO.
Q: THAT WAS LEFT FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO RECOVER?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, THAT PLASTIC, DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHETHER IT BELONGS IN A BRONCO OR ANYTHING ABOUT IT?
A: WELL, NOW I DO.
Q: AND WHAT IS THAT?
A: IT IS THE SPARE TIRE BAG....
Q: WHAT ABOUT THAT SHOVEL? STANDARD EQUIPMENT ALSO?
A: NO. I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO.
Q: NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH MR. KAELIN IN WHICH HE INFORMED YOU ABOUT THE THUMPS ON THE WALL.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT TIME DID HE SAY HE HEARD THOSE THUMPS?
A: 10:45 P.M.
Q: OKAY.
YOU -- I THINK YOU HAD TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT YOU BROUGHT HIM INTO THE HOUSE WITH YOU AND PUT HIM IN THE BAR AREA?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: THEN I WALKED TOWARDS THE FRONT DOOR AREA WHICH PASSES THE KITCHEN.
Q: AND THEN WHAT?
A: I SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER IN THE KITCHEN. I TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER. I SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT, "PHIL, TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR."
Q: OKAY. DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT TO TALK ABOUT?
A: NO.
Q: AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I WALKED OUT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE....
Q: WHEN YOU LEFT -- WHEN YOU EXITED THE FRONT DOOR, WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: I WALKED OUT INTO THE DRIVEWAY AND I LOOKED TO MY LEFT TO SEE WHERE THE PROPERTY ENDED.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SIR, IF YOU WOULD PLEASE STEP DOWN AND SHOW US THE ROUTE YOU TOOK WHEN YOU EXITED THE FRONT DOOR....
A: I EXITED THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE WHERE ON THIS CHART IT SAYS "ENTRANCE." I EXITED GOING WEST.
I WALKED ONTO THE DRIVEWAY AND THEN LOOKED SOUTH.
Q: NOW, WHY DID YOU LOOK SOUTH?
A: WELL, FROM WHERE I HAD COME FROM IN KAELIN'S ROOM, THE WALL THAT HE HEARD THE CRASH OR THE THUMP WAS ON THE SOUTH WALL.
Q: UH-HUH.
AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: I WALKED DOWN TO THE DRIVEWAY AND I STARTED WALKING DOWN TOWARDS THE GARAGE. THE GARAGE COMES SOMEWHAT OUT FROM THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
I WALKED AROUND THE GARAGE AND WENT DOWN TO THE SOUTHERN MOST PART OF THE PROPERTY AND THEN I LOOKED TO MY LEFT, WHICH WOULD BE EAST.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU LOOKED TO YOUR LEFT EASTWARD BECAUSE WHY?
A: THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE DIRECTION GOING BACK TOWARDS KAELIN'S ROOM.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I SAW A PATHWAY. IT LOOKED VERY NARROW AND DARK AND THERE WAS A CYCLONE FENCE THAT RAN ALONG THE SOUTHERN PROPERTY LINE WITH LOOKED LIKE PLANTS FROM THE RESIDENCE TO THE SOUTH THAT HAD OVERGROWN TOWARDS THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE.
Q: AND WERE THERE ANY GATES THERE?
A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS A GATE THAT WAS BROKEN AT SOME POINT IN HERE, (INDICATING). I BELIEVE IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HERE, (INDICATING). I BELIEVE IT WAS LAID UP AGAINST SOME -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT DEBRIS WAS THERE. WHAT WAS THERE, BUT IT WAS THERE, YES.
Q: SO IT WAS NOT CLOSED, THE GATE?
A: NO.
Q: AND SO WHAT DID YOU DO? WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: WELL, I TOOK OUT MY FLASHLIGHT AND I STARTED WALKING DOWN THE PATH TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE RESIDENCE ARCHITECTURE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE KAELIN'S WALL MIGHT HAVE BEEN.
Q: NOW, WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM THAT FIRST GATE AREA IN TERMS OF FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY? WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE?
A: WELL, I COULD SEE THERE WAS A LONG WALKWAY, BUT THIS WAS A LITTLE ELEVATED, SO I WAS LOOKING SOMEWHAT DOWNWARD. I SAW A LONG PATH, A LONG DARK PATH COVERED WITH LEAVES.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO FIND?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW. I THOUGHT POSSIBILITY SOMEBODY HAD COLLAPSED BACK THERE.
Q: AND WHY -- WHY DID YOU THINK THAT?
A: BY KAELIN'S STATEMENT, IT WAS RATHER ODD THE THUMP ON THE WALL, NOTHING THAT FOLLOWED UP, PLUS WHAT I OBSERVED ON THE BRONCO THAT WAS PARKED ON ROCKINGHAM AND THE INABILITY TO RAISE ANYBODY IN THE RESIDENCE. THAT WAS OUR CONCERNS AT THAT POINT.
Q: OKAY.
SO WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THAT FIRST GATE AREA GOING DOWN? ANYTHING?
A: NOTHING REALLY.
Q: WAS IT -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING IN THAT AREA?
A: WELL, THE LIGHTING OUTSIDE -- IT WAS GETTING LIGHT OUTSIDE BUT IT WAS -- IT WAS EVEN WORSE LIGHTING BACK HERE, (INDICATING), VERY SHADED.
THESE TREES OR SHRUBS CAUSE IT TO BE DARK -- DARK AND THEN THESE -- ALL THESE BUILDINGS WERE MUCH HIGHER THAN -- ABOUT THE SAME HEIGHT AS THE TREES AT SOME POINT, SOMETIMES HIGHER.
Q: OKAY.
SO DID YOU NEED THE AID OF YOUR FLASHLIGHT IN ORDER TO SEE WHERE YOU WERE GOING?
A: NOT SO MUCH TO SEE WHERE I WAS WALKING, BUT MOSTLY JUST TO LOOK FOR ANYTHING THAT I MIGHT HAVE WALKED ON....
Q: AND THEN YOU -- WHERE DID YOU GO AFTER YOU REACHED THAT FIRST GATE AREA?
A: I GOT TO THIS AREA AND I WAS KIND OF CONFUSED BY THIS INDENTATION AND I LOOKED IN THIS AREA, (INDICATING), BUT I COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING THAT WOULD -- THAT WOULD REALLY INDICATE THAT THIS IS WHERE THE NOISE WAS FROM.
I WALKED BACK OUT HERE, (INDICATING), IN THIS AREA. I BELIEVE THERE WAS ANOTHER GATE IN HERE SOMEWHERE, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS OPENED OR CLOSED.
MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD WHEN THE WITNESS SAID, "THIS AREA" HE WAS REFERRING TO THE -- BEHIND THE GARAGE AREA, THE ENTIRE AREA ON PEOPLE'S 66 THAT IS INDENTED THAT WOULD BE JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE GARAGE AREA.
Q: AND THEN YOU RECALL A SECOND GATE?
A: I BELIEVE SO. IT WAS -- IT WAS ALSO OPENED.
Q: OKAY. NOT LOCKED?
A: NOT LOCKED, NO.
Q: AND DID YOU -- WERE YOU -- WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHEN YOU GOT TO THE SECOND GATE AREA IN TERMS OF FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY?
A: THEN I WAS -- AS I WAS FURTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY -- I HADN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE ANYTHING FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY. I WAS LOOKING AT THIS ARCHITECTURE IN HERE, (INDICATING), WHERE IT IS BEGINNING TO COME BACK OUT ADJACENT TO THE PATH....
Q: DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION, SIR, TO PEOPLE'S 116, THE PHOTOGRAPH LABELED A, TELL US WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
A: PHOTOGRAPH A IS THE FRONT OF THE GARAGE. THIS IS FACING DUE WEST.
I WALKED ALONG THE PATH AND CAME OUT IN FRONT OF THE GARAGE AND WALKED TO THIS ENTRANCE RIGHT HERE AND LOOKED EAST DOWN THE PATH, (INDICATING)....
Q: AND PHOTOGRAPH B?
A: PHOTOGRAPH B WOULD BE -- THIS IS THE AIR CONDITIONER THAT IS JUTTING OUT WITH THE BRACING. THIS WALL LINE HERE I BELIEVE IS THE BEGINNING OF THE BUILDING, THE BUNGALOWS WHERE I BELIEVE THE OUTSIDE OF KATO'S WALL, MAYBE THE OFFICE THAT IS JUST ADJACENT TO KATO'S WALL....
Q: NOW, YOU SAID YOU PASSED THROUGH THE SECOND GATE AREA?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHEN YOU GOT TO THE AREA OF THE SECOND GATE?
A: WELL, I WAS LOOKING -- INITIALLY I WAS LOOKING UP TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THE -- WHERE THE WALL WAS. I LOOKED UP. I SAW A SHEAR WALL THAT WENT UP QUITE A WAYS, LIKE FIFTEEN -- MAYBE AS HIGH AS TWENTY FEET, AND THE PITCH OF THE ROOF WENT DIRECTLY BACK IN TOWARDS THE POOL AREA.
AND I RECALLED THAT FROM WHEN I WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE. AND I DETERMINED THAT THAT WAS PROBABLY KATO'S WALL.
Q: SO AS YOU WERE LOOKING THEN AT THE OUTSIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, YOU WERE TRYING TO FIND OUT -- YOU WERE TRYING TO DETERMINE WHAT WALL MATCHED UP WITH THE OUTSIDE OF KATO'S ROOM?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS IT, IF YOU RECALL, WHEN YOU EXITED THE HOUSE AND WENT DOWN THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?
A: 6:00, 6:10, 6:15.
Q: WERE YOU LOOKING AT YOUR WATCH WHEN YOU WENT OUT OF THE HOUSE?
A: NO. NO, MA'AM.
Q: YOU ARE ESTIMATING FOR US?
A: YES.
Q: AND THEN AFTER YOU PASSED THROUGH THAT SECOND GATE AREA, YOU SAW THE WALL THAT APPEARED TO MATCH KATO'S WALL?
A: YES.
Q: THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
A: I CONTINUED WALKING DOWN THE PATH, AND WHEN I GOT APPROXIMATELY FIFTEEN OR TWENTY FEET AWAY, I SAW A DARK OBJECT AND I CONTINUED TO WALK FORWARD TOWARDS THAT OBJECT.
Q: COULD YOU TELL WHAT THAT DARK OBJECT WAS?
A: NO, NOT UNTIL I GOT VERY CLOSE.
Q: AND HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET BEFORE YOU COULD TELL WHAT IT WAS?
A: SEVERAL FEET, MAYBE THREE OR FOUR, I'M NOT SURE. AT SOME POINT I COULD TELL THAT IT WAS A GLOVE.
Q: AND WHEN YOU SAW THAT IT WAS A GLOVE -- FIRST OF ALL, WHERE DID YOU SEE IT IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE AIR CONDITIONER SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S B AND C?
A: HERE IS THE AIR CONDITIONER, (INDICATING).
Q: PEOPLE'S B.
A: AN I LOOKED DOWN AND THERE IS THE DARK OBJECT THAT I SAW, (INDICATING).
MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO WHAT LOOKS LIKE A SMALL DARK SPOT RIGHT NEXT -- ON THE GROUND NEAR THE AIR CONDITIONER IN PHOTOGRAPH B....
Q: AND IN PHOTOGRAPH C CAN YOU SEE IT?
A: I -- IT IS RATHER DARK, BUT I BELIEVE -- HERE IS THE AIR CONDITIONER BRACING AND THEN I BELIEVE THIS IS -- IT IS REALLY HARD TO SEE RIGHT IN HERE.
THIS LOOKS LIKE THE OBJECT THAT I SAW, YES.
MS. CLARK: AND FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO TWO PRICES OF WOOD STICKING OUT OF THE WALL IN THE TOP OF PHOTOGRAPH C WHEN HE REFERRED TO THE BRACING FOR THE AIR CONDITIONER AND A DARK SPOT UNDERNEATH ON THE GROUND....
Q: IN PHOTOGRAPH D, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU SEE THERE?
A: PHOTOGRAPH D IS A PICTURE OF WHAT NOW I IDENTIFIED AS A POSSIBLE GLOVE. THIS WAS -- THIS WAS PROBABLY ABOUT THE DISTANCE, MAYBE A LITTLE FARTHER BACK, THAT I COULD TELL IT WAS PROBABLY A GLOVE.
Q: AND WHEN YOU WERE ABLE TO TELL THAT IT WAS PROBABLY A GLOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: WELL, I WALKED CLOSER TO LOOK AT IT.
Q: OKAY. HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO IT?
A: OH, I GOT PROBABLY AS CLOSE AS PHOTO F LOOKING DOWN AT IT.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHAT DID -- DID YOU JUST STAND AND LOOK DOWN AT IT? DID YOU TOUCH IT? WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I LOOKED AT IT. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT WAS....
Q: CAN YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE THE APPEARANCE OF THE GLOVE, SIR.
A: WELL, IT APPEARED TO BE -- IT DIDN'T MATCH THE TERRAIN. THERE IS LEAVES ALL OVER THE WALKWAY. IT WAS DIRTY IN THE AREA. IT WAS
UNKEPT (SIC). THIS GLOVE DIDN'T HAVE ANY SIGNS
OF DIRT OR LEAVES OR TWIGS ON IT.
IT APPEARED A DARK LEATHER GLOVE. IT APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT MOIST OR STICKY. I DIDN'T TOUCH IT, BUT IT APPEARED THAT PARTS WERE STICKING TO OTHER PARTS OF THE GLOVE.
Q: AND YOU WERE DESCRIBING THE WALKWAY AREA. YOU INDICATED IT WAS KIND OF DIRTY WITH LEAVES. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY -- ANY FOOTPRINTS OR SHOEPRINTS OR DISTURBANCE IN THOSE LEAVES?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: CAN YOU DESCRIBE, WAS IT VERY THICKLY COVERED WITH LEAVES? WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE?
A: WELL, MUCH AS THIS PICTURE DEPICTS IN THIS PHOTO, THAT WAS MUCH OF THE WAY THE WALKWAY LOOKED.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHEN YOU LOOKED BACK, COULD YOU SEE WHERE YOU HAD JUST WALKED ON THE WALKWAY?
A: NO.
Q: SO AFTER YOU GOT UP TO THE GLOVE, YOU INDICATE YOU LOOKED DOWN AT IT. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: WELL, AT THAT POINT I WAS SOMEWHAT ALARMED AT FINDING SOMETHING SUCH AS THIS, AND NOT KNOWING IF A SUSPECT OR A VICTIM HAD LEFT SOMETHING BACK THERE, SO I CONTINUED FARTHER EAST PASSED THE AIR CONDITIONER.
Q: OKAY. LET ME BACK UP ONE SECOND.
COULD YOU TELL WHETHER THAT WAS A RIGHT OR LEFT-HANDED GLOVE WHEN YOU LOOKED AT IT AT THAT TIME?
A: IT APPEARED TO BE A RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE.
Q: OKAY.
AND DID IT -- WAS IT -- WERE YOU -- WHAT SIGNIFICANCE DID YOU ATTACH TO IT WHEN YOU SAW IT, IF ANY?
A: WELL, IT LOOKED SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE ON THE BUNDY SCENE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU -- DID YOU IMMEDIATELY THINK IT WAS A MATCH? WHAT WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND ABOUT THAT?
A: OH, I DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT POINT. IT WAS A DARK-COLORED LEATHER GLOVE.
Q: OKAY. AND AFTER YOU SAW THAT GLOVE, DID YOU PICK IT UP?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I CONTINUED -- I WALKED AROUND IT. I CONTINUED EASTBOUND ON THE WALKWAY.
Q: DID ANYTHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION AS YOU PASSED THE AREA OF THE GLOVE AND CONTINUED DOWN THE WALKWAY?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?
A: I STARTED HITTING SPIDERWEBS OR COBWEBS IN MY FACE.
Q: HAD YOU HIT ANY SPIDERWEBS OR COBWEBS UP UNTIL THE TIME YOU SAW THE GLOVE?
A: NO.
Q: SO WHAT DID DO YOU NEXT? YOU CONTINUED DOWN THE WALKWAY?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: AND WHY?
A: WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW IF I HAD SOMEONE THAT HAD GONE ALL THE WAY DOWN THE WALKWAY, WHETHER IT BE A SUSPECT OR A VICTIM. I DIDN'T KNOW THEIR CONDITION AND AT THAT POINT I DIDN'T WANT TO TURN MY BACK ON ANYONE THAT MIGHT BE WATCHING ME.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU SEE?
A: I SAW NOTHING. I CONTINUED DOWN THE WALKWAY TO THE END OF THE BUILDING WHERE THERE WAS A LARGE -- LARGE AREA OF BUDDING PLANTS AND SHRUBBERY.
I CONCLUDED THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHERE GARDENERS START SMALL PLANTS.
Q: SO IS THAT THE -- WHERE IS THAT AREA LOCATED WITH RESPECT TO THE HOUSE AND THE WALKWAY?
A: IT WOULD BE IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER.
Q: AT THE BACK OF THE HOUSE?
A: YES.
Q: SO YOU WENT ALL THE WAY BACK THERE?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GOING TO FIND BACK THERE?
A: I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY THAT HAD COLLAPSED AND GONE BACK TO THAT AREA AND QUITE POSSIBLY WAS LYING THERE....
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR OF THE LOCATION YOU SAW THAT AREA AND WAS THERE -- WAS IT LIKE A DIRT AREA BACK THERE?
A: SOMEWHAT. THERE WAS PLANTS AND THERE WAS WILD GRASS AND THERE WAS SOME SHRUBBERY AND THERE WAS SOME PLANTS THAT LOOKED LIKE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN TAKEN CARE OF OR PLANTED THERE ON PURPOSE.
Q: DID YOU LOOK AROUND?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID -- OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED, DID YOU SEE ANYTHING ELSE?
A: I FOUND NO -- NO EVIDENCE OF ANYONE BEING THERE OR ANY EVIDENCE OF ANYBODY LEAVING SOMETHING IN THAT AREA, SO I LEFT.
Q: OKAY. AND WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: I WALKED BACK UP THE PATH WESTBOUND AND I WENT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND I LOCATED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST WENT BACK ON THAT WALKWAY, DID YOU KNOW WHETHER KATO HAD ALREADY GONE BACK THERE TO INVESTIGATE THE THUMPS ON THE WALL?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: AND YOU WALKED BACK OUT?
A: YES....
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO AT THAT TIME?
A: I WALKED NORTH OR BACK TOWARD THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND I SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IN FRONT OF THE -- THE KITCHEN T.V. ROOM AREA....
Q: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 117, SIR, YOU INDICATED JUST NOW THAT WHEN YOU CAME OUT FROM THE SOUTH PATHWAY THAT YOU WENT TOWARDS THE HOUSE WHERE YOU SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: YES, MA'AM.
Q: DO YOU SEE THE AREA IN PEOPLE'S 117 WHERE YOU SAW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS STANDING?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHERE IS THAT?
A: THERE IS A FIRST STORY WINDOW FACING THE CAMERA, ALMOST CENTER. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THAT PAVED AREA....
Q: ALL RIGHT. WAS HE STANDING OUTSIDE, SIR?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT -- DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A: SOMEWHAT. I JUST TOLD RON I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW HIM SOMETHING.
Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU WANTED TO SHOW HIM?
A: NO.
Q: WHY NOT?
A: I WANTED TO SEE HIS IMPRESSION. HE MADE SIMILAR OBSERVATIONS ON THE BUNDY SCENE THAT I HAD AND I WANTED TO SEE WHAT HE THOUGHT OF WHAT I HAD DISCOVERED ON THE PATHWAY.
Q: OKAY. WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
A: I TOOK DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DOWN THAT PATHWAY AND SHOWED HIM.
Q: OKAY. AND WAS THAT -- DID YOU TAKE THE SAME ROUTE AS YOU HAD EARLIER?
A: I DIDN'T DELAY IN CERTAIN AREAS, BUT YES.
Q: SO THIS TIME YOU JUST WALKED STRAIGHT BACK?
THE COURT: YES.
Q: WHEN YOU SAY "DELAY IN CERTAIN AREAS," WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
A: WELL, THE INDENTATION ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THERE WAS A LARGE AMOUNT OF AREA THERE THAT I WALKED INTO THAT AREA TO ORIENT MYSELF. I DIDN'T DO THAT THIS TIME.
Q: AND WHEN YOU TOOK DETECTIVE PHILLIPS OUT, HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO THE GLOVE?
A: WE STOOD JUST TO THE WEST OF IT KNEELING DOWN.
Q: YOU WERE KNEELING DOWN?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS KNEELING DOWN?
A: I DON'T RECALL. I JUST KNELT DOWN. THAT IS A NARROW PATH. I JUST KNELT DOWN SO HE COULD ALSO OBSERVE AND POINTED.
Q: AND AFTER YOU SHOWED IT -- EXCUSE ME.
DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOUCH THE GLOVE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: WE RETURNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE, AND I'M NOT SURE IF I ENTERED THE RESIDENCE OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SENT DETECTIVE VANNATTER, BUT I BELIEVE I AT SOME POINT TALKED TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE AND I TOOK DETECTIVE VANNATTER BACK TO THE LOCATION.
Q: AND WHAT ROUTE DID YOU TAKE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A: THE SAME AS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: AND HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO THE GLOVE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A: IT WAS SIMILAR. WE APPROACHED THE GLOVE JUST TO THE WEST OF IT, OBSERVED IT AND THEN TURNED AROUND AND WALKED BACK.
Q: AND DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE AT THAT TIME?
A: NO.
Q: DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A: NO.
Q: AND AFTER YOU BOTH SAW THE GLOVE, WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: WE RETURNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: OKAY. AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I BELIEVE WE ENTERED THE KITCHEN AREA AND CONTACTED DETECTIVE LANGE AND I BROUGHT HIM DOWN TO THE SAME LOCATION.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH DETECTIVE LANGE?
A: THE SAME AS THE TWO OTHER DETECTIVES, LED HIM DOWN TO THE GLOVE, SHOWED HIM WHAT I HAD OBSERVED AND WE RETURNED.
Q: AND DID DETECTIVE LANGE TOUCH THE GLOVE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE?
A: NO.
Q: WHEN YOU CAME BACK OUT WITH DETECTIVE LANGE, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: DETECTIVE LANGE AND VANNATTER WERE INVOLVED IN CONVERSATION AND I BELIEVE I STOOD AWAY FROM -- FROM THAT, SO I'M NOT EXACTLY POSITIVE WHAT -- WHAT THE CONVERSATION ENTAILED.
Q: OKAY.
WHY DID YOU NOT INVOLVE YOURSELF IN THEIR CONVERSATION?
A: WELL, THIS WAS THEIR CRIME SCENE, SO THEY WERE DISCUSSING WHAT HAD BEEN FOUND, AND IF ANYTHING, WHAT IT MEANT.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, AT SOME POINT DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ABOUT WHERE THE DEFENDANT WAS?
A: I DON'T RECALL. I LEARNED OF IT, YES, BUT I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHEN. I KNOW IT WAS AFTER I RETURNED WITH ALL THE DETECTIVES, BUT I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN.
Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY "AFTER YOU RETURNED WITH ALL THE DETECTIVES"?
A: AFTER I CAME BACK FROM THE PATH AND NOTIFIED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, SOMETIME AFTER I SHOWED ALL THE DETECTIVES WHAT I HAD FOUND ON THE PATH, I LEARNED OF CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH MR. SIMPSON.
Q: OKAY.
SO AT THE TIME THAT YOU FOUND THE GLOVE, YOU STILL DID NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS OR WHERE HE HAD GONE OR WHEN HE HAD GONE THERE?
A: NO.
Q: AND I SAY "HE," I'M REFERRING TO MR. SIMPSON.
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: SO IS IT YOUR CURRENT RECOLLECTION THEN, SIR, BASED ON WHAT YOU TELL US, THAT YOU LEARNED THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS IN -- WHERE THE DEFENDANT WAS AT SOME POINT AFTER ALL DETECTIVES WERE TAKEN BACK TO SEE THE GLOVE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AFTER DETECTIVE LANGE AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER HAD THAT CONVERSATION, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: THEREABOUTS SOMETIME DETECTIVE VANNATTER TOLD DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF TO GO BACK TO BUNDY TO LOOK AT THAT GLOVE THAT WE HAD SEEN ON BUNDY.
Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE, SIR?
A: TO SEE IF THERE WAS A SIMILARITY, IF WE HAD A RIGHT AND A LEFT, SEE IF THE COLOR AND THE LEATHER AND THE LINING MATCHED.
Q: AND SO AFTER DETECTIVE VANNATTER ASKED YOU TO DO THAT, DID YOU?
A: YES. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I LEFT THE ROCKINGHAM SCENE AND WENT BACK TO BUNDY....
Q: AND WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO BUNDY, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS INSTRUCTED ME TO GET A PHOTOGRAPHER. I DID. WE WALKED DOWN DOROTHY, ENTERED THE ALLEY AND CAME IN THROUGH THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE....
Q: ALL RIGHT, SIR.
WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ASKED YOU TO GO AND GET A PHOTOGRAPHER, DID YOU DO THAT?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT?
A: TO PHOTOGRAPH THE GLOVE IN ITS ORIGINAL POSITION, AND IF I NEEDED TO MOVE IT TO INSPECT IT ANY FURTHER, WE COULD -- IN OTHER WORDS, PHOTO IT AS WE ORIGINALLY FOUND IT.
Q: AND WHO IS IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?
A: THAT IS VICTIM BROWN AND MYSELF.
Q: AND ARE YOU POINTING TO SOMETHING UNDERNEATH THAT BUSH?
A: YES, I AM.
Q: AND WHAT IS THAT?
A: IT IS THE GLOVE ON BUNDY.
Q: AND IS THAT THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHER OVER TO TAKE AT THE DIRECTION OF DETECTIVES VANNATTER AND PHILLIPS?
A: YES....
Q: AFTER THAT PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN, SIR, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: I RETURNED TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS.
Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU RETURN TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS?
A: TO INFORM THE DETECTIVES WHAT I SAW AT BUNDY.
Q: NOW, BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR ROCKINGHAM AGAIN, WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO THE GLOVE ON BUNDY, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO -- YOU WERE ASKED -- I THINK YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER TO COMPARE IT TO THE ONE AT ROCKINGHAM TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT LOOKED THE SAME?
A: YES.
Q: AND A MATCH?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE OF THAT?
A: WELL, I HAD TO DETERMINE IF IT WAS A RIGHT OR A LEFT, AND I DID. IT WAS A LEFT-HANDED GLOVE.
Q: AT BUNDY?
A: YES. IT APPEARED TO BE THE SAME TEXTURE OF LEATHER, SAME COLOR.
Q: UH-HUH.
A: THE FABRIC, A MESH FABRIC, WAS THE LINING INSIDE, IT APPEARED TO BE THE SAME TEXTURE, DESIGN AND COLOR AS THE GLOVE ON ROCKINGHAM.
Q: DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU MOVE IT?
A: YES.
Q: HOW DID YOU DO THAT?
A: WITH A PEN....
Q: AND HOW -- WHAT DID YOU DO THAT FOR?
A: I JUST LIFTED IT AND TURNED IT SO I COULD TELL IF IT WAS A RIGHT OR A LEFT AND TO LOOK AT THE LINING.
Q: OKAY. AND WAS THERE SOMEONE ELSE PRESENT WHEN YOU DID THAT?
A: YES.
Q: WHO?
A: THE PHOTOGRAPHER. I BELIEVE HE WAS MR. ROKAHR....
Q: AND SO YOU WERE GOING TO REPORT BACK TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A: YES.
Q: AND AFTER THAT WAS DONE, SIR, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU GO BY YOURSELF?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: DID YOU ASK ANYONE TO FOLLOW YOU OR PROCEED THERE AS WELL?
A: YES.
Q: WHO WAS THAT?
A: THE PHOTOGRAPHER.
Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
A: TO PHOTOGRAPH THE OTHER GLOVE AND FOR WHATEVER OTHER REASON DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE WANTED HIM AT ROCKINGHAM.
Q: NOW, AFTER YOU -- AFTER YOU LIFTED THE -- PUT YOUR PEN INSIDE TO LIFT THE GLOVE AT BUNDY, DID YOU REPLACE IT IN THE SAME LOCATION?
A: YES.
Q: AS IT WAS FOUND?
A: YES.
Q: YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM THEN AND YOU TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHER?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT?
A: TO DOCUMENT THE POSITION OF THE GLOVE ON THE PATHWAY THAT I HAD DISCOVERED EARLIER.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO IN THAT REGARD WHEN YOU GOT TO ROCKINGHAM WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHER?
A: I BELIEVE I WAS INSTRUCTED TO SHOW HIM WHERE THE GLOVE WAS SO HE COULD PHOTOGRAPH IT, AND HE DID.
Q: DID YOU TAKE HIM DOWN THAT SOUTH PATHWAY?
A: YES.
Q: AND AGAIN, WHAT ROUTE DID YOU TAKE TO TAKE HIM DOWN THERE?
A: THE SAME AS THE OTHER THREE DETECTIVES; EASTBOUND ON THE PATH TO THE GLOVE, JUST WEST OF THE GLOVE, AND HE PHOTOGRAPHED IT....
Q: YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER THAT THE -- THAT YOU NOTICED IT TO BE -- THE GLOVE TO BE MOIST AND STICKY.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: THAT IS THE WAY IT APPEARED, YES.
Q: DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER ANY FINGERS WERE STUCK TOGETHER?
A: I DO RECALL THAT THERE WAS ONE FINGER THAT WAS STUCK TO ONE PART OF THE GLOVE.
Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A: WE -- I TOOK THE PHOTOGRAPHER BACK OUT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND I RE-ENTERED THE FRONT DOOR AREA THAT LED INTO THE KITCHEN.
Q: OKAY. AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
A: TO TELL THE DETECTIVES -- WELL, I HAD ALREADY PREVIOUSLY TOLD THEM WHAT I HAD FOUND, BUT THERE WAS A DISCUSSION GOING ON AND I CAME BACK THERE TO REJOIN THEM.
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU WERE -- LET ME BACK UP FOR A SECOND.
WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM, WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER IT WAS RIGHT OR LEFT-HANDED?
A: THE GLOVE ON ROCKINGHAM WAS A RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE.
Q: AND THE PHOTOGRAPH OF IT SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 116-E -- WELL, ACTUALLY D, E AND F, IS THAT -- DO THOSE DEPICT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU ORIGINALLY FOUND IT?
A: YES.
Q: AND SO WERE YOU ABLE TO LOOK AT THE GLOVE AND SEE WHERE THE THUMB WAS LOCATED, WITHOUT LIFTING IT?
A: YES.
Q: WHO WAS INSIDE THE KITCHEN AREA WHEN YOU WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE AFTER HAVING THE GLOVE PHOTOGRAPHED?
A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DETECTIVE -- DETECTIVE VANNATTER FOR SURE. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. THAT WAS ALL I BELIEVE I SAW WHEN I WALKED IN THERE.
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU HAVE ANY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS THEN AT THAT POINT AS TO WHAT YOU WERE TO DO?
A: WELL, AT THAT POINT DETECTIVE VANNATTER MADE A STATEMENT THAT WE ARE GOING TO HANDLE THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS AS A CRIME SCENE AND WE NEEDED TO SEAL IT OFF, SECURE IT.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU ASKED TO DO AT THAT POINT, IF ANYTHING?
A: TO MAKE SURE NO ONE WAS IN THE HOUSE. THERE WAS -- THERE WAS TWO CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE,
A: MAN THAT I LATER FOUND OUT WAS MR. COWLINGS,
MISS ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS IN THE HOUSE. I THINK THAT WAS ALL.
WE ASKED THEM THAT IF THEY COULD TAKE THE CHILDREN SOMEWHERE ELSE, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE, THAT THERE WAS SOME INVESTIGATION THAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE AT THE HOUSE.
Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU?
A: AT THIS TIME?
Q: UH-HUH.
A: I BELIEVE I WALKED OUT INTO THE LIVING ROOM AREA. I THINK I TALKED TO MR. COWLINGS THERE. I BELIEVE MISS SIMPSON WAS SOMEWHERE IN THAT GENERAL VICINITY ON THE FIRST FLOOR.
Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU REMAIN AT ROCKINGHAM AT THAT TIME, SIR?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING?
A: WAITING FOR A SEARCH WARRANT TO BE WRITTEN.
Q: AND WHO WAS THERE WITH YOU?
A: AT THAT POINT DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS THERE MOMENTARILY, THEN HE LEFT. THERE WAS UNIFORMED OFFICERS WITH THE BRONCO AT THE FRONT OF THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, UNIFORMED OFFICERS TO THE FRONT OF ASHFORD.
DETECTIVE ROBERTS AT SOME POINT REJOINED ME AT THAT LOCATION AND I DON'T -- THERE WAS SEVERAL DETECTIVES THAT ENDED UP THERE, AND I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT TIME.
Q: LET ME BACK UP FOR ONE MINUTE.
YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE BUNDY GLOVE TO SEE IF IT MATCHED THE ONE YOU HAD FOUND AT ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES.
Q: WHEN YOU DID THAT, YOU WENT WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS I THINK YOU TESTIFIED?
A: YES.
Q: AT SOME POINT, WHEN YOU WERE BACK AT BUNDY TO COMPARE THAT GLOVE TO THE ROCKINGHAM GLOVE, DID YOU -- DO YOU RECALL SEEING DETECTIVE LANGE?
A: I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I SAW HIM AT THAT POINT.
Q: WHEN YOU RETURNED TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU SAW DETECTIVE LANGE THERE?
A: I CAN'T REMEMBER. I REMEMBER TALKING TO VANNATTER BECAUSE HE SAID WE WERE GOING TO SECURE THIS AND HANDLE IT LIKE A CRIME SCENE, AND THEN I STARTED TALKING TO MR. COWLINGS AND MISS SIMPSON.
Q: THEN DID YOU REMAIN AT ROCKINGHAM FOR THE BALANCE OF THE DAY?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOUR FUNCTIONS THERE?
A: TO MAKE SURE WE JUST KEPT THE LOCATION SECURE WAITING FOR A WARRANT TO BE SIGNED....
THE COURT TOOK A BRIEF RECESS.
THE COURT: MR. BAILEY, YOU MAY COMMENCE WITH YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MARK FUHRMAN.
BY MR. BAILEY:
Q: GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
A: GOOD MORNING, MR. BAILEY.
Q: COULD YOU TELL US WHEN IT WAS THAT YOU WERE ENLIGHTENED AS TO THE FACT THAT THE PLASTIC YOU SAW IN MR. SIMPSON'S BRONCO COMES WITH THE CAR, WHEN YOU LEARNED THAT?
A: YES. I BELIEVE IT WAS SATURDAY.
Q: SATURDAY.
A: YES....
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE SHOVEL IN MR. SIMPSON'S BRONCO, DID YOU THINK THAT A SIGNIFICANT FIND?
A: I DON'T THINK "SIGNIFICANT" WAS THE WORD I WOULD USE....
Q: OKAY.
NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOUR COLLEAGUES, DETECTIVES VANNATTER AND LANGE, ON THE 13TH DAY OF JUNE 1994 HAD A TOTAL OF SOME THREE HOURS IN THE COMPANY OF MR. SIMPSON, CORRECT? DID YOU LEARN THAT?
A: I HAD NEVER HEARD THAT TIME, NO.
Q: YOU KNOW THEY TALKED THOUGH?
A: YES, I UNDERSTAND....
Q: DO YOU KNOW IF A FORMAL STATEMENT WAS TAKEN AT SOME POINT ON THAT DAY, JUST YES OR NO...?
A: I CAN ONLY SAY THAT THROUGH OTHER SOURCES, I ASSUMED AND I HEARD, BUT I HAD NEVER SEEN ANYTHING OR HEARD ANYTHING.
Q: YOU NEVER TALKED TO DETECTIVES VANNATTER AND LANGE ABOUT WHAT THE SUSPECT HAD SAID DURING THREE HOURS OF CONVERSATION?
A: NO, I DIDN'T....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU EVER ASK MR. SIMPSON ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT A SHOVEL?
A: I NEVER ASKED --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASSUMES HE EVER ASKED ANYTHING.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: DID YOU?
A: I'VE NEVER ASKED MR. SIMPSON ANY QUESTIONS....
Q: OKAY.
IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT THE TIME OF DEATH CAN DEFINE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE POTENTIAL SUSPECTS IN A CASE?
A: I THINK IT WOULD BE USEFUL.
Q: AND IT CAN ALSO ELIMINATE PERSONS WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE BE SUSPECTS IN THE CASE; CAN IT NOT?
A: I'M SURE IT COULD, YES.
Q: NOW, IN THIS CASE, DO YOU REGARD THE TIME OF DEATH OF THE VICTIMS AS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR?
A: I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE ON THIS CASE.
Q: YOU DON'T. OKAY.
WHEN YOU ENCOUNTERED MR. SIMPSON AND THE WOMAN YOU NOW KNOW TO BE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON IN 1985, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT BECAUSE YOU PREFER BASKETBALL OVER FOOTBALL, BUT STILL LIKE FOOTBALL, YOU KNEW WHO HE WAS AS YOU WALKED UP?
A: AS I GOT CLOSE, I SAW WHO HE WAS, YES.
Q: HAD YOU EVER SEEN HER BEFORE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU EVER SEE HER AGAIN UP TO THE TIME OF HER DEATH?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WHEN YOU WERE AT THE SCENE, DID YOU HAVE ANY POWER TO PAT DOWN ANYBODY THERE? WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATE POLICE CONDUCT?
A: WHICH SCENE IS THIS, SIR?
Q: '85, THE MERCEDES.
A: OH, I BELIEVE I COULD HAVE, YES.
Q: WELL, MR. SIMPSON DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING ON HIM OR IN HIS HANDS RESEMBLING A WEAPON, DID HE?
A: NO.
Q: NO.
WHAT WOULD BE THE BASIS THAT YOU WOULD WALK ON A PERSON'S LAND AND PAT THEM DOWN? DO YOU HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO DO THAT?
A: AT SOME POINT YOU DO.
Q: AND DID YOU HAVE ANY LEGAL RIGHT TO ARREST HIM?
A: OH, NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: SO WHEN MISS CLARK ASKED YOU ON DIRECT EXAMINATION COULD YOU HAVE ARRESTED HIM, YOUR ANSWER WAS WHAT?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE I SAID I COULD HAVE ARRESTED HIM, NO....
Q: NOW, IN 1994, AT 1:05 A.M., WHILE YOU WERE SOUND ASLEEP, MY UNDERSTANDING IS, YOU RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: HAD YOU SEEN MR. O.J. SIMPSON PERSONALLY BETWEEN 1985 AND JUNE OF 1994?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: MR. PHILLIPS TOLD YOU THAT THERE WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE IN BRENTWOOD AND THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS MIGHT WELL BE THE FORMER WIFE OF MR. O.J. SIMPSON; DID HE NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID THAT BRING TO YOUR MIND YOUR PRIOR ASSOCIATION WITH THE SIMPSON'S IN 1985 AS AN INVESTIGATING PATROLMAN AND AS A POTENTIAL WITNESS IN 1989? DID YOU REMEMBER THOSE THINGS?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE I EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT MUCH AT THE TIME.
Q: SO I TAKE IT THAT THE INDELIBLE PRESS THAT WAS IN YOUR MIND IN 1989 HAD FADED TO A DEGREE?
A: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT. I WAS GOING TO A HOMICIDE SCENE. I WAS MOSTLY THINKING ABOUT HOW WE WERE GOING TO HANDLE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE SCENE AND WHO WAS GETTING CALLED IN.
Q: HADN'T PHILLIPS EXPLAINED TO YOU THAT BASED ON THE INFORMATION HE HAD GOTTEN, THIS WAS A SPECIAL CASE BECAUSE OF ONE OF THE VICTIMS?
A: NO, HE NEVER VERBALIZED THAT.
Q: HAD YOU LEARNED FROM HIM DURING THAT CONVERSATION THAT THE COMMANDER WISHED TO HAVE MR. SIMPSON PERSONALLY NOTIFIED AS OPPOSED TO TELEPHONIC NOTIFICATION?
A: I BELIEVE I LEARNED THAT WHEN WE WERE EN ROUTE TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, FOLLOWING THE RECEIPT OF THIS PHONE CALL FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOU AROSE, I TAKE IT SHOWERED AND CLEANED UP, ET CETERA, AND DROVE IN YOUR CAR TO THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE YOU AT THAT HOUR OF THE MORNING, ASSUME TRAFFIC IS RATHER LIGHT, TO DRIVE IN FROM REDONDO BEACH?
A: IT'S FAIRLY QUICK. PROBABLY 20 TO 25 MINUTES....
Q: YEAH. DID YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TAKE ONE OF THE AUTOMOBILES THAT BELONGS TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?
A: YES, SIR....
Q: IT IS A VERY SHORT DISTANCE FROM THERE TO THE INTERSECTION OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY; IS IT NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU AGREE THAT YOUR ARRIVAL TIME -- I ASSUME YOU DO BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN NOTES -- WAS 2:10 A.M.?
A: YES, I DO.
Q: AND THAT YOU AND PHILLIPS ARRIVED SIMULTANEOUSLY?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, YOU WERE THE FIRST DETECTIVE ON THE SCENE, YOU TWO?
A: YES. BOTH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DID YOU LEARN THAT SERGEANT ROSSI HAD BEEN THERE SINCE EARLY ON, SOMETIME BEFORE YOU?
A: BEFORE I ARRIVED, YES.
Q: AND DID YOU KNOW HIM PERSONALLY PRIOR TO THIS INCIDENT?
A: JUST AS MUCH AS HE WAS THE WATCH COMMANDER, NOTHING PERSONAL.
Q: YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE IN PRIOR HOMICIDE CASES?
A: NOTHING, SIR.
Q: DID YOU KNOW OFFICER RISKE PRIOR TO YOUR INTRODUCTION TO HIM IN CONNECTION WITH THIS INVESTIGATION?
A: ONLY AS MUCH AS KNOWING HIS NAME WAS RISKY AND WHO THAT NAME WAS ATTACHED TO.
Q: BUT YOU HADN'T WORKED WITH HIM BEFORE?
A: NO, I HADN'T.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, I TAKE IT THAT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, YOU HAD QUITE A FEW QUESTIONS AS THE INITIAL DETECTIVE TAKING OVER THE CASE?
A: INITIALLY, I DIDN'T SAY HARDLY ANYTHING. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOOK THE LEAD TALKING TO SERGEANT ROSSI.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME IDEA OF THE BREAK-UP IN RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS? HAD YOU WORKED A PRIOR HOMICIDE TOGETHER?
A: YES.
Q: THERE ARE CERTAIN TASKS THAT HAVE TO BE LOOKED AFTER IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU GET ON THE SCENE, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: DO YOU FELLOWS DIVIDE UP THESE RESPONSIBILITIES OR DOES HE JUST TAKE CONTROL AND DIRECT YOU TO DO CERTAIN THINGS?
A: NO. THERE'S A WAY WE USUALLY WORK TOGETHER.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DID YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WHEREBY YOU ALLOCATED THE WORK TO BE DONE AT THIS PARTICULAR SCENE?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, WAS -- DO YOU KNOW IF IT WAS CONTEMPLATED THAT YOU WOULD WORK SIDE BY SIDE OR THAT YOU WOULD GO OFF IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS?
A: WELL, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR. SO HE WOULD NOT BE TAKING A LEAD ROLE. IT WOULD BE ONE OF THE OTHER DETECTIVES THAT HAD BEEN CALLED IN THAT HAD NOT YET ARRIVED.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, WHAT OTHER DETECTIVES HAD BEEN CALLED IN THAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
A: DETECTIVE ROBERTS AND DETECTIVE NOLAN.
Q: AND WHAT RANK DO THEY HOLD?
A: BOTH DETECTIVE 1.
Q: SO THAT YOU APART FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WOULD BE THE SENIOR DETECTIVE ON-SITE?
A: YES.
Q: UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE ARRIVED, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AND YOU SAY THAT SINCE HE'S THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR, I GATHER THE THRUST OF THAT IS THAT YOU HAD TO DO THE FOOTWORK SO TO SPEAK?
A: WELL, WORKING WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, HE USUALLY CONDUCTS MOST OF YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE NOTIFICATIONS.
Q: RIGHT.
A: HE COORDINATES AND HE ALLOWS THE DETECTIVES HANDLING THE CASE TO WORK THE CASE.
Q: WHICH IN THIS CASE WAS YOU, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU WERE TO DO THE DETECTING?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHAT DID YOU FIRST ADDRESS OF THE MANY THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LOOKED AT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE?
A: I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE OR --
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED WHENEVER A HOMICIDE OCCURS, RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU KNEW THIS BOTH BY VIRTUE OF YOUR TRAINING, YOUR EXPERIENCES AS PATROLMAN AT 10 OTHER HOMICIDE INVESTIGATIONS, RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
IF THE VICTIMS AREN'T QUITE DEAD AS SOMETIMES IS THE CASE, THAT'S PRIORITY NUMBER ONE, TREATMENT AND ATTENTION OF THE VICTIMS, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU ELIMINATED THAT POSSIBILITY IN YOUR OWN MIND RATHER QUICKLY IN THIS CASE; DID YOU NOT?
A: OFFICER RISKE INFORMED US OF THE SITUATION.
Q: OKAY.
THE PROTECTION OF OTHERS WHO MAY BE IN DANGER BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES EVIDENT AT THE CRIME SCENE WOULD BE PROBABLY THE NEXT CONSIDERATION; WOULD IT NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU KNEW THE CHILDREN HAD BEEN IN THE HOUSE AND HAD BEEN TAKEN TO THE SAFETY OF THE POLICE STATION?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY HAD BEEN ASKED AS TO WHERE OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS MIGHT BE?
A: I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY QUESTIONS.
Q: DID YOU MAKE ANY EFFORT TO CONTACT THEM AND INQUIRE?
A: NOT AT THAT TIME.
Q: OKAY.
PRESERVING THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TASK; IS IT NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU SAW THAT YELLOW TAPE HAD BEEN PUT UP?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT ELSE HAD BEEN DONE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE TO PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE BEFORE YOU TOOK OVER?
A: WHAT I SAW WAS, THE OFFICERS DID A VERY GOOD JOB IN SEALING OFF A VERY, VERY LARGE AREA CONSIDERING THAT THEIR ONLY KNOWLEDGE WAS THAT THE CRIME SCENE INVOLVED ONE ADDRESS OR ONE RESIDENCE. THEY SEALED OFF A VERY LARGE AREA AND HAD UNIFORMED PERSONNEL WITH THEIR VEHICLES AT DIFFERENT LOCATIONS TO KEEP THAT AREA SECURE AND ANY UNAUTHORIZED PEOPLE FROM ENTERING....
Q: OKAY.
NOW, HAD YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DISCUSSED AT THIS POINT THE MANNER IN WHICH MR. SIMPSON WOULD BE NOTIFIED?
A: NO, I WAS NOT PRIVILEGED TO THAT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN WHAT SPECIAL STEPS WOULD BE TAKEN IN THIS CASE?
A: I AM SORRY?
Q: WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT SPECIAL RULES HAD BEEN ISSUED BY THE BRASS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AS TO HOW MR. SIMPSON WOULD BE NOTIFIED?
A: NEVER.
Q: YOU NEVER HEARD THAT?
A: NO.
Q: YOU'RE LEARNING TODAY THAT PHILLIPS WAS TOLD TO TELL HIM PERSONALLY RATHER THAN OVER THE TELEPHONE?
A: NO. I THOUGHT YOU MEANT SPECIAL, SPECIAL WAY THAT WE WERE GOING TO NOTIFY, BEST DESIRABLE IN ANY CASE. I ONLY LEARNED FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHILE WE WERE IN THE VEHICLE THAT WE WERE GOING UP TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION.
Q: CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN THAT WAS?
A: WHEN WE GOT INTO THE VEHICLE TO LEAVE.
Q: TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: THAT WAS 5:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING OR THEREAFTER?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHAT'S YOUR BEST ESTIMATE?
A: ABOUT 5:00 O'CLOCK.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, I WONDER IF YOU COULD HELP US, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, AND JUST GIVE US YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION OF YOUR WHEREABOUTS AT VARIOUS TIMES THAT ARE RELEVANT TO YOUR EXPERIENCES THAT MORNING, PLEASE, IN VIEW OF THE DEFENSE.
YOU RECEIVED A CALL FROM PHILLIPS AT 1:05?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: CAN YOU ESTIMATE AT WHAT POINT YOU WERE ACTUALLY ON THE ROAD AND HEADED TO THE STATION?
A: USUALLY TAKES ME MAYBE 15, 20 MINUTES TO GET READY.
Q: OKAY.
SO SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 1:15 AND 1:25?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND I THINK YOU SAID AROUND 20 MINUTES TO DRIVE IN?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU ARRIVED THERE AROUND 1:50, 1:55?
A: SHORTLY BEFORE 2:00, YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND HAVING ARRIVED AT THE CRIME SCENE AT 2:10, I WOULD ASSUME THAT YOU LEFT THE STATION ABOUT 2:05.
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, IF YOU CAN, PLEASE TRY TO TELL US WHAT YOU WERE DOING AT 2:15, FIVE MINUTES AFTER YOU ARRIVED AT THE CRIME SCENE.
A: I BELIEVE I WAS LISTENING TO EITHER SERGEANT ROSSI OR OFFICER RISKE EXPLAIN WHAT THEY HAD DISCOVERED.
Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU PHYSICALLY STANDING AS YOU LISTENED TO THIS INFORMATION?
A: INSIDE THE YELLOW TAPE BEHIND A POLICE VEHICLE PARKED IN THE ROADWAY.
Q: OKAY.
HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND AT THAT LOCATION GETTING THIS INFORMATION BEFORE YOU MOVED TO SOMEWHERE ELSE?
A: A FEW MOMENTS. JUST LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE A FEW STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW THE BODIES WERE DISCOVERED.
Q: OKAY.
WELL, A MOMENT DOESN'T HAVE A VERY CONCRETE DEFINITION. CAN YOU JUST GIVE US IN MINUTES?
A: COUPLE OF MINUTES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT BY 2:15, YOU WERE LEAVING THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE AND WALKING SOUTH ON DOROTHY?
A: I THINK THAT WOULD BE RATHER QUICK. WE TRIED TO APPROACH TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE, BUT THEN WE TURNED AROUND AND THEN WE WENT DOWN TOWARDS DOROTHY.
Q: WOULD IT BE MORE FAIR TO SAY BETWEEN 2:15 AND 2:25, YOU LEFT THE CRIME SCENE WHERE YOU, PHILLIPS AND RISKE HAD BEEN LOOKING AT THE BODIES AND WALKED BACK OUT TO THE SIDEWALK AND SOUTH ON DOROTHY?
A: I THINK THAT'S TOO MUCH. NO.
Q: TOO MUCH. ALL RIGHT.
I UNDERSTAND YOU SAID 2:15 WOULD BE TOO SOON. AND MY QUESTION NOW IS, WOULD IT BE BETWEEN 2:15 AND NO LATER THAN 2:25?
A: I WOULD BE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH MAYBE NO LATER THAN 20 AFTER.
Q: OKAY.
SO BY 2:20, YOU WERE ON THE MOVE.
NOW, YOU'VE DESCRIBED HOW YOU WALKED THROUGH THE SHRUBBERY I BELIEVE YOU SAID FROM OFF THE PICTURE AS YOU WERE LOOKING AT A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE SCENE AND COULD VIEW THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, BUT DID NOT HAVE A VERY GOOD VIEW OF THE BODY OF THE OTHER VICTIM FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT.
AM I CORRECTLY SUMMARIZING WHAT HAPPENED?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
IN ORDER TO ATTAIN A BETTER PERSPECTIVE, YOU QUESTIONED RISKE, AS A RESULT OF WHICH YOU WALKED DOWN BUNDY TO DOROTHY AND AROUND -- UP THE ALLEY AND INTO THE SIMPSON HOME, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND OUT THE FRONT DOOR WHICH YOU UNDERSTOOD WAS FOUND OPEN BY THE OFFICERS FIRST ON THE SCENE.
A: YES.
Q: CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING CONDITIONS THAT EXISTED AT THE MOMENT THAT YOU WALKED OUT THAT FRONT DOOR?
A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS LIGHT COMING FROM THE INSIDE OF THE RESIDENCE CASCADING DOWN ONTO THE WALKWAY.
Q: CASCADING DOWN?
A: YES.
Q: IS THAT SUGGESTING THAT THE NAKED EYE COULD SEE MOST OF THE DETAIL OF THE CRIME SCENE WITHOUT THE AID OF ARTIFICIAL ILLUMINATION BY VIRTUE OF THAT LIGHT?
A: NO. THERE WAS A LOT OF SHADOWING. THERE'S A LOT OF SHRUBBERY. IT WASN'T VERY GOOD LIGHT.
Q: WELL, DID YOU HAVE YOUR LITTLE FLASHLIGHT WITH YOU AT THAT TIME?
A: YES....
Q: THEN PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU WALKED AROUND TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, THE ONLY PLACE YOU HAD BEEN IS WITH THE OTHERS IN THE SHRUBBERY AT THE GATEPOST AS YOU PUT IT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: TRUE?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
AT WHAT TIME WOULD YOU SAY YOU ENTERED THE RESIDENCE ASSUMING THAT YOU LEFT AT 2:20 FROM THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE?
A: WITHIN A MINUTE....
Q: WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOME, DID YOU GO DIRECTLY OUT THE FRONT DOOR TO VIEW THE BODIES ONCE AGAIN OR DID YOU AT THAT TIME BEGIN TO WALK AROUND AND MAKE OBSERVATIONS?
A: NO. I WAS LED BY OFFICER RISKE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
THE PURPOSE IN TAKING THAT ROUTE WAS TO GET BACK TO WHERE YOU HAD STARTED, BUT IN A DIFFERENT PLACE, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND TO GET THERE WITHOUT WALKING THROUGH THE POOLING OF BLOOD THAT WAS AROUND THE AREA, THAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE, RIGHT?
A: YES. YES, SIR.
Q: HOW LONG WOULD YOU SAY YOU SPENT AT THE CRIME SCENE FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT UP ON THE STEPS I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US ON THAT OCCASION?
A: ONCE OFFICER RISKE BROUGHT US OUT INTO THE LANDING? JUST LONG ENOUGH TO POINT OUT A FEW ITEMS OF EVIDENCE, SHOW US THE FOOTPRINTS AND THEN WALK US BACK ALONG THE RIGHT SIDE OF THOSE SHOEPRINTS.
Q: OKAY.
WELL, HOW LONG DO YOU THINK YOU SPENT THERE?
A: COUPLE MINUTES.
Q: MAYBE ONLY TWO?
A: TWO, THREE MINUTES.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU MADE THE OBSERVATIONS YOU DESCRIBED FOR US ON DIRECT EXAMINATION ABOUT MR. GOLDMAN, THE OTHER EVIDENCE THAT WAS LYING AROUND?
A: OFFICER RISKE WAS POINTING THEM OUT WITH HIS FLASHLIGHT.
Q: OKAY.
THESE ARE THINGS HE HAD DISCOVERED AND HE WAS SHOWING THEM TO YOU. THESE WERE NOT THINGS THAT YOU WERE DISCOVERING AS A DETECTIVE, RIGHT?
A: I WAS LISTENING AND HE WAS POINTING THEM OUT, YES, SIR, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: BUT HE ALREADY KNEW THEY WERE THERE. YOU FELLOWS WEREN'T MAKING A DISCOVERY AT THAT POINT, WERE YOU?
A: NO. WE WERE QUIET LISTENING TO HIS -- HIS LEAD.
Q: AND HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN THEM THERE WHEN HE FIRST CAME ON THE SCENE A LITTLE AFTER MIDNIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: NOW, AFTER SPENDING TWO, THREE MINUTES THERE, WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: WE WALKED DOWN ALONG THE PATHWAY THAT'S ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, LOOKED AT THE GATE.
Q: IS THIS WHERE YOU SAW THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS?
A: THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS WERE FROM THE LANDING WESTBOUND.
Q: RIGHT.
NOW, YOU'VE DESCRIBED A PATH THAT GOES DOWN SOME STEPS, LEVELS OUT AND GOES UP SOME STEPS AND OUT THE BACK GATE, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: DID I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY THAT THE LAST BLOODY FOOTPRINT THAT YOU SAW THAT NIGHT WAS ON THE CONCRETE BEFORE YOU GO DOWN THE FIRST SET OF STEPS?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: IS THAT CORRECT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: WOULD YOU ASK THAT ONE MORE TIME?
Q: YEAH.
HAVE IN MIND THAT STEPS GO UP, THERE'S A FLAT AREA GOING BY THE ENTRANCE TO THE HOME, STEPS GO DOWN, LEVELS OUT AGAIN, STEPS GO UP AND THEN YOU GO OUT THE BACK GATE. HAVE THAT SCENARIO IN MIND? DO YOU REMEMBER THAT NOW?
A: YEAH. YES, I DO.
Q: OKAY.
IS IT CORRECT THAT THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS THAT YOU SAW DID NOT EXTEND BEYOND THE FIRST FLAT LEVEL?
A: I DON'T RECALL THEY DID, NO....
Q: YOU HAVE REFERRED TO THE DEPRESSED AREA IN THE PAST AS A TROTH OF SOME SORT; HAVE YOU NOT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, MY QUESTION IS, DID ANY FOOTPRINTS GO DOWN THE STEPS OR INTO THE TROTH THAT YOU SAW THAT NIGHT?
A: I DIDN'T SEE ANY.
Q: OKAY.
HAVE YOU HAD SOME TRAINING IN FOOTPRINTS?
A: SHOEPRINTS OR FOOTPRINTS?
Q: SHOEPRINTS, FOOTPRINTS. HAVE YOU HAD SOME CLASSES, SOME ON-THE-JOB TRAINING OR ANYTHING THAT WOULD EDUCATE YOU AS TO THE KINDS OF FOOTPRINTS THAT CAN BE FOUND AT A CRIME SCENE AND HOW THEY CAN BE ISOLATED AND PRESERVED?
A: YES.
Q: YOU HAVE.
A: YES....
Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT A LATENT FOOTPRINT IS?
A: IT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT'S NOT VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE.
Q: OKAY.
SO THAT IF THERE WERE ANY LATENT FOOTPRINTS THAT WERE ON THAT WALKWAY THAT NIGHT, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ONLY THE CRIMINALIST COULD LIKELY PICK UP, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: IN OTHER WORDS, IF THERE HAD BEEN TWO PEOPLE, ONE STEPPED IN BLOOD AND THE OTHER DIDN'T, THERE MIGHT BE SOME LATENT FOOTPRINTS AROUND TO BE DETECTED BY SOMEBODY PROPERLY TRAINED; FAIR STATEMENT?
A: I'M NOT SURE IF IT WOULD BE A FAIR STATEMENT.
Q: DON'T THINK SO?
A: I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED AT THE QUESTION.
Q: OKAY.
ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET ME SEE IF I CAN CLARIFY IT SOMEWHAT.
A: THANK YOU.
Q: IF A LATENT FOOTPRINT, SHOEPRINT IS ONE THAT CANNOT BE SEEN WITH THE NAKED EYE BUT MUST NONETHELESS BE PROTECTED, YOU CAN ONLY PROTECT THE AREA WHERE IT MIGHT BE, CORRECT, NOT A SPECIFIC SPOT IN THAT AREA?
A: I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AND A CRIMINALIST MIGHT LATER COME ALONG AND EITHER WITH ULTRAVIOLET LIGHT OR OBLIQUE LIGHT FIND SOME SHOEPRINT IN THE DUST THAT YOU HADN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE FOR LACK OF TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, TRUE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AND MY QUESTION IS WHETHER THE CRIME SCENE THAT YOU WERE WALKING ON AS YOU WENT BACK UP THAT WALKWAY WITH OFFICER RISKE WAS BEING PROTECTED IN THAT FASHION.
A: I BELIEVE THE WHOLE SCENE WAS BEING PROTECTED, YES.
Q: OKAY.
BUT HOW DID YOU GET FROM THE FRONT TO THE BACK?
A: WELL, WE HAD TO GET THERE SOME WAY.
Q: AND SO YOU WALKED?
A: WE WALKED AT THE BEST PATH THAT WE COULD DETERMINE AT THAT TIME.
Q: BEING CAREFUL TO AVOID THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS AND WHAT YOU THOUGHT MIGHT BE DROPS OF BLOOD?
A: YES, SIR....
Q: WHAT DID YOU NEXT DO?
A: WALKED OUT ONTO THE DRIVEWAY. OFFICER RISKE POINTED OUT BLOOD DROPS AND SOME CHANGE.
Q: YEAH.
A: THEN I REENTERED THE HOUSE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, BEFORE YOU REENTERED THE HOUSE, DID YOU OR HAD YOU BEGUN TO DEVELOP A PICTURE OF THIS CRIME SCENE AND TO HAVE SOME IDEAS AS TO WHAT MIGHT BE RELEVANT AND WHAT MIGHT NOT IN THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION YOU WERE ABOUT TO CONDUCT?
A: WELL, SOMEWHAT.
Q: DID YOU HAVE AN OVERVIEW?
A: A SLIGHT OVERVIEW.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
RISKE HAD BEEN DOING HIS BEST PRIOR TO YOUR ARRIVAL TO DO THE THINGS HE HAD BEEN TRAINED TO DO, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU WERE TRAINED TO DO WHEN YOU WERE A PATROLMAN AT HOMICIDE SCENES AS OPPOSED TO A DETECTIVE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
HAD ANY CANVASSING OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD TAKEN PLACE THAT YOU KNOW OF?
A: I BELIEVE THERE HAD BEEN, YES.
Q: AND AS I RECALL FROM YOUR NOTES, YOU SAID THE RESIDENTS WOULDN'T OPEN THE DOOR. SO NOBODY LEARNED MUCH.
A: WELL, I THINK THAT WAS AN IMPRESSION OF OFFICER RISKE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS ACCURATE.
Q: BUT SOMEBODY TOLD YOU?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU INQUIRE ABOUT WHETHER THE CRIME SCENE HAD BEEN SEARCHED AND ITS SURROUND FOR ANY EVIDENCE OF WEAPONS, CLOTHING OR OTHER IMPLEMENTS OF CRIME?
A: NO.
Q: RISKE DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT THE AREA HAD BEEN LOOKED AT, GARBAGE CANS, DIPSEY-DUMPSTERS AND SO FORTH?
A: I DON'T RECALL HIM MAKING ANY COMMENT, NO.
Q: DO YOU RECALL DIRECTING ANYONE TO ACCOMPLISH THAT PURPOSE?
A: NO.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WHEN THERE IS DELAY IN A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION, NUMBER ONE, THE PERPETRATORS OR PERPETRATOR, AS THE CASE MAY BE, HAVE A CHANCE TO GET FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM THE SCENE, CORRECT?
A WELL, I THINK THAT WOULD BE COMMON SENSE, YES.
Q: THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY PERHAPS TO PLANT EVIDENCE, TO MISLEAD THE DETECTIVES AS TIME GOES BY?
A: I COULDN'T ANSWER THAT, SIR.
Q: THEY HAVE TIME -- THIS IS NO PART OF YOUR TRAINING I TAKE IT?
A: PLANTING EVIDENCE? NO, IT ISN'T.
Q: AND THEY HAVE TIME TO STRUCTURE FALSE ALIBIS ALL DURING THIS PERIOD THAT THEY ARE NOT BEING APPREHENDED?
A: I WOULD PROBABLY AGREE WITH THAT.
Q: AND THEY ARE FREE TO KILL AGAIN, TRUE?
A: IF THAT'S THE CIRCUMSTANCE.
Q: WELL, IF THEY'RE NOT APPREHENDED, PRESUMABLY THEY HAVE THE SAME FREEDOM THAT PERMITTED THEM TO ACCOMPLISH THE GRISLY SCENE THAT YOU HAD JUST VIEWED, TRUE...?
A: I COULDN'T SPECULATE ON A CRIMINAL'S INTENT WHETHER HE KILLED ONCE OR A HUNDRED....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WHEN DID YOU GO INTO THE HOUSE AS BEST YOU CAN RECALL TO MAKE YOUR NOTES?
A: RIGHT AFTER OFFICER RISKE LED US PAST THE DRIVEWAY INTO THE ALLEYWAY.
Q: DID YOU GIVE ANY DIRECTION TO ANY OF THE OFFICERS AT THE SCENE PRIOR TO SITTING DOWN TO MAKE THE NOTES THAT WE'VE ALL VIEWED AS TO THINGS THEY OUGHT TO DO OR OUGHT NOT TO DO?
A: NO. I WAS SATISFIED WITH THE CRIME SCENE, THE SECURITY OF IT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT, WHEN YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WALKED UP TO THAT POST, WHAT WERE THE RULES ENFORCED ABOUT PEOPLE GOING TO THE CRIME SCENE, THE AREA WHERE YOU WERE STANDING?
A: I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE RULES.
Q: WHICH PEOPLE, IF ANY, WERE ALLOWED TO GO INSIDE THE YELLOW TAPE OF THOSE WHO WERE PRESENT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 2:10 A.M.?
A: I WOULD SAY AT THAT POINT, CONCERNED DETECTIVES AS FAR AS APPROACHING THE SCENE.
Q: JUST DETECTIVES?
A: AS FAR AS APPROACHING THE SCENE?
Q: RIGHT.
A: THAT WOULD BE MY ASSUMPTION AT THAT POINT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU ISSUE ANY ORDERS AS TO WHO COULD AND COULD NOT CROSS THAT TAPE?
A: NO.
Q: WHEN DID YOU FIRST REALIZE DETECTIVE ROBERTS HAD ARRIVED?
A: WHEN HE ENTERED THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE AND CAME INTO THE KITCHEN AREA.
Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS THAT?
A: SHORTLY BEFORE THIS CASE WAS RELIEVED FROM OUR RESPONSIBILITY.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU HAVE MENTIONED THAT EVENT A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS. CAN YOU TELL US, ACCORDING TO YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION, WHEN IT WAS THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SAID, "ROBBERY-HOMICIDE IS TAKING OVER THIS CASE"?
A: WITHIN A HALF HOUR OR 40 MINUTES OF OUR ARRIVAL.
Q: WELL, WOULD THE FIGURE 38 MINUTES AFTER YOU ARRIVED SEEM TO BE ABOUT CORRECT?
A: I'VE NEVER READ THAT, BUT I AGREE WITH IT.
Q: OKAY.
SO THAT IF YOU GOT THERE AT 2:10, THEN ABOUT 2:50 OR THEREABOUTS, YOU LEARNED THAT THIS CASE WAS NO LONGER YOURS TO LEAD, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU WERE IN THE PROCESS OF WRITING YOUR NOTES ABOUT 10 MINUTES OF 3:00 WHEN YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION AS I UNDERSTAND IT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND DID YOU CEASE WRITING YOUR NOTES AT THAT POINT BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN RELIEVED OR BECAUSE YOU LEARNED YOU HAD BEEN RELIEVED?
A: I COMPLETED THE NOTES. WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOLD ME THAT WE WERE RELIEVED OF THIS, I COMPLETED THE NOTES THAT I HAD STARTED.
Q: HOW MANY NOTES DID YOU WRITE AFTER YOU GOT THE INFORMATION?
A: OH, THERE WAS ONLY TWO OR THREE POINTS THAT I WANTED TO PUT ON THE NOTES THAT WERE OF CONCERN.
Q: BUT YOU DID THAT SUBSEQUENT?
A: I BELIEVE WHEN HE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, ON ANOTHER SUBJECT JUST BRIEFLY, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT YOU WERE INSTRUCTED BY SOMEONE LAST FALL TO WATCH THE LARRY KING SHOW?
A: NO. THAT WAS THIS YEAR....
Q: ...YOU SAY YOU'RE SURE YOU NEVER MET A WOMAN NAMED KATHLEEN BELL?
A: YES, SIR....
Q: DID YOU EVER MEET A WOMAN THAT LOOKS LIKE THE LADY ON THE LARRY KING SHOW BY SOME OTHER NAME?
A: NO.
Q: IN LOOKING AT THAT FACE -- HOW LONG DID YOU WATCH THE SHOW THAT NIGHT?
A: ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.
Q: WAS THAT ENOUGH TO SATISFY YOU THAT YOU HAD NEVER SEEN THIS WOMAN BEFORE?
A: I DID NOT RECOGNIZE HER.
Q: THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION.
WERE YOU SATISFIED AFTER FIVE MINUTES -- AND I TAKE IT YOU DISCONTINUED VIEWING THE SHOW -- THAT THE WOMAN BEING INTERVIEWED BY LARRY KING AND IDENTIFYING HERSELF AS KATHLEEN BELL WAS SOMEONE YOU HAD NEVER MET?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: OKAY.
IS IT NOT TRUE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE RECOLLECTED SUCH A PERSON IF YOU HAD MET THEM UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SHE DESCRIBED WITHOUT GOING INTO WHAT THEY WERE?
A: YES, I WOULD.
Q: THAT KIND OF THING WOULD IMPRESS YOUR MEMORY THE SAME WAY THE MEETING OF O.J. SIMPSON WOULD; WOULD IT NOT?
A: I DON'T THINK IN THE SAME WAY, BUT SIMILAR, YES.
Q: WELL, WHAT SHE WAS DISCUSSING WAS FAIRLY OUTRAGEOUS CONDUCT; IS IT NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
AND IF YOU HAD ENGAGED IN THAT CONDUCT WITH THE WOMAN WHOSE IMAGE YOU WERE LOOKING AT, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU WOULD SOON FORGET, IS IT?
A: NO....
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH OF A BLOND WOMAN AND TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS THE PERSON THAT WAS BEING INTERVIEWED BY LARRY KING WHEN YOU WATCHED THE SHOW AT THE REQUEST OF THE PROSECUTION.
A: YES....
Q: ...AND DO YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF JOE FAUS BEING IN YOUR COMPANY AND HERS IN THE RECRUITING STATION IN 1986 OR THEREABOUTS?
A: I DO NOT.
Q: OR AT ANY TIME IN YOUR LIFE?
A: I DO NOT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO THAT IF HE WERE TO SAY THAT HE DID IN FACT INTRODUCE THE TWO OF YOU, YOU SAY THAT CAN'T BE TRUE, TRUE?
A: IF HE SAID THAT, I DO NOT RECALL EVER MEETING THIS WOMAN IN THE RECRUITING STATION OR ANYWHERE ELSE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WELL, I'M TRYING TO GET THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN A LACK OF RECOLLECTION, A FADED MEMORY AND AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY THAT YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS WOMAN BEFORE UNTIL YOU SAW HER ON TELEVISION. WHICH IS IT?
A: I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THIS WOMAN AS ANYBODY I HAVE EVER MET.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT NOT ONLY DID YOU NOT KNOW THIS WOMAN AND HAD NEVER MET HER, BUT YOU HAD NEVER SAID THE THINGS THAT WERE DISPLAYED ON THE ELMO IN HER LETTER, TRUE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AND IS IT FAIR TO SAY THERE CAN BE NO MISTAKE IN YOUR MIND ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS PARTICULAR?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DO YOU KNOW A WOMAN NAMED ANDREA TERRY?
A: NO, I DO NOT.
Q: DID YOU EVER MEET A WOMAN STANDING SIX FEET ONE INCH NAMED ANDREA TERRY IN A BAR DOWN THERE WHERE YOU LIVE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: IS THERE A BAR DOWN IN THAT AREA THAT YOU FREQUENT?
A: NO LONGER, BUT YES, THERE IS.
Q: BACK IN '85?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHAT WAS THE NAME OF IT?
A: HENNESSEY'S TAVERN.
Q: HENNESSEY'S TAVERN.
NOW, ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT ON AN OCCASION IN THE MIDDLE 80'S RELATED IN TIME TO YOUR GOING TO THE MARINE RECRUITING STATION FOR WHATEVER PURPOSE YOU MET WITH A WOMAN NAMED ANDREA TERRY AND KATHLEEN BELL, AN INDEPENDENT SECOND OCCASION.
A: NO.
Q: HAVE YOU BEEN SHOWN ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF ANDREA TERRY BY ANYONE?
A: NO, I HAVE NOT.
Q: DID YOU SPEND A LITTLE TIME DISCUSSING HER WITH THE PROSECUTION THIS WEEKEND?
A: IT WAS MENTIONED, BUT I SAID I DON'T KNOW THIS WOMAN.
Q: TELL ME ABOUT THE MENTION. WHERE WERE YOU AND WHO WERE YOU TALKING WITH?
A: IT WAS JUST ASKED -- EXCUSE ME? ON THE --
Q: WHERE WERE YOU AND WHO WERE YOU TALKING WITH WHEN THE SUBJECT CAME UP?
A: IN THIS BUILDING.
Q: TALKING TO MISS CLARK OR ONE OF HER ASSOCIATES?
A: YES.
Q: WAS THIS BEFORE OR AFTER YOU WENT AND FOUND OUT ABOUT THE STANDARD EQUIPMENT FOR THE BRONCO?
A: NO. THAT WAS AT MY RESIDENCE.
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU DO THAT ON YOUR OWN OR DID SOMEONE ASK YOU TO DO IT?
A: NO. SOMEONE THAT KNEW SOMEBODY CALLED ME AND SAID THAT'S WHAT THAT BAG IS.
Q: BUT A LOT OF PHONE CALLS CAME IN ABOUT THAT, DIDN'T IT?
A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. ONE.
Q: OH, OKAY.
IN ANY EVENT, WERE YOU ASKED WHETHER OR NOT A WOMAN NAMED ANDREA TERRY HAD EVER MET YOU IN HENNESSEY'S TAVERN WITH OR WITHOUT KATHLEEN BELL?
A: I NEVER HEARD THE LAST NAME, BUT THE FIRST NAME I DID HEAR.
Q: OKAY.
DOES THE FIRST NAME MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?
A: NO.
Q: ARE YOU AS SATISFIED THAT YOU DID NOT MEET KATHLEEN BELL WITH ANOTHER WOMAN IN HENNESSEY'S AS YOU ARE THAT YOU DID NOT MEET KATHLEEN BELL IN THE RECRUITING STATION?
A: YES.
Q: SO THAT IF ANDREA TERRY WERE TO TESTIFY THAT SHE WAS WITH YOU IN HENNESSEY'S TAVERN IN 1986 WITH KATHLEEN BELL AND HEARD REMARKS SUCH AS THE ONE WE'VE SEEN, YOU WOULD SAY THAT IS A FABRICATION, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: I DON'T KNOW WHY SHE'D DO IT, BUT YES, I WOULD.
Q: NO QUESTION ABOUT IT?
A: NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER DONE ANYTHING TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE TO HURT OR OTHERWISE OFFEND ANYONE IN THE BELL FAMILY, ASSUMING THAT THERE IS ONE?
A: I HAVE NO IDEA, SIR.
Q: EVER HAD ANY CONTACT WITH ANY RELATIVE OR POSSIBLE RELATIVE OF KATHLEEN BELL IN YOUR CAPACITY AS A POLICEMAN?
A: I WOULD HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT. THE NAME IS -- BELL DOES NOT RING A --
Q: THE NAME BELL DOESN'T RING A BELL. IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SAY?
A: YES. YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHAT DOES THE NAME TERRY RING OR ANDREA?
A: NOTHING.
Q: OKAY.
SO UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE STATEMENT OF MR. FAUS THAT HE MADE ONE INTRODUCTION OF MISS TERRY, THAT SHE WAS IN A MEETING WITH THE TWO OF YOU OR AN ENCOUNTER WOULD BOTH BE INCORRECT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: WHAT WAS THE LAST OF THAT QUESTION, SIR?
Q: LET ME BREAK THEM UP.
WE'VE ALREADY HEARD FROM YOU THAT MR. FAUS WOULD BE SERIOUSLY IN ERROR IF HE SAID HE INTRODUCED YOU TO THE WOMAN WHOSE PICTURE IS ON THE ELMO.
A: YES.
Q: IT NEVER HAPPENED, TRUE?
A: KATHLEEN BELL? NO.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU NEVER MET HER IN HENNESSEY'S TAVERN?
A: NO.
Q: ON ANY OCCASION OR UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES OR WITH ANY OTHER PERSON?
A: NO.
Q: AND YOU HAVE NO IMAGE IN MIND OF A TALL ATTRACTIVE WOMAN NAMED ANDREA WITH WHOM YOU TALKED IN HENNESSEY'S TAVERN IN 1986?
A: NONE AT ALL.
Q: NONE WHATSOEVER?
A: NO....
Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHY YOU WERE AT THE RECRUITING STATION AND ON WHAT DAY?
A: ON WHAT DAY I CAN NOT.
Q: HOW MANY OCCASIONS?
A: TWO OR THREE.
Q: AND WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN GOING THERE?
A: I ASKED SERGEANT FAUS IF THERE WAS ANY GOOD RESERVE UNITS THAT WERE -- IF THEY HAD ANY OPENINGS.
Q: AND HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU DO THAT?
A: WELL, I FOUND THAT THERE WASN'T REALLY ANY MOVEMENT IN THE RESERVE UNITS AT THAT TIME, BUT I ENJOYED TALKING TO SERGEANT FAUS. SO I RETURNED FOR A FEW OTHER TIMES.
Q: DID YOU MEET ANYONE ELSE WHILE YOU WERE THERE?
A: A MR. RORE OR SERGEANT RORE.
Q: SERGEANT RORE. RON RORE?
A: I BELIEVE. I DON'T REMEMBER HIS FIRST NAME.
Q: AND HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU MEET HIM?
A: I THINK HE WAS THERE EVERY TIME.
Q: AND DID YOU TALK WITH HIM ABOUT POSSIBLY ENROLLING IN A RESERVE UNIT?
A: NO. I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE OVERHEARD MY PURPOSE, BUT THAT WAS DROPPED FAIRLY QUICKLY.
Q: FAUS WAS THE MAIN SOURCE OF INFORMATION?
A: YES.
Q: AND HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU SEE SERGEANT RORE?
A: A COUPLE OF TIMES.
Q: DID YOU SEE A MARINE WHILE YOU WERE THERE ON ANY OF THESE OCCASIONS NAMED MAX CORDOVA?
A: I BELIEVE I SAW A MARINE THAT I LATER FOUND OUT WAS HIM. I DIDN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME.
Q: DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM AT ALL?
A: I REMEMBER HIM KIND OF IN THE BACKGROUND OF THE RECRUITING OFFICE DOING -- DOING SOME TASKS.
Q: DO YOU REMEMBER AN OCCASION WHEN HE POINTED OUT TO YOU SERGEANT RORE WHO WAS THEN COMING ACROSS THE STREET?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER THAT, NO.
Q: HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF SUCH AN EVENT?
A: NO.
Q: HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE COMPANY OF MAX CORDOVA? DO YOU KNOW HIS RANK BY THE WAY?
A: NO, I DON'T.
Q: OKAY.
PFC, CORPORAL, SERGEANT?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: WAS HE IN UNIFORM?
A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.
Q: WERE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE IN UNIFORM WHENEVER YOU SAW THEM ON THE THREE OCCASIONS THAT YOU WENT TO THE STATION?
A: YES.
Q: AND HOW LONG WOULD YOU STAY ON THE FIRST, SECOND AND THIRD OCCASIONS, IF YOU CAN TELL US INDIVIDUALLY?
A: LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE. 15, 20 MINUTES.
Q: DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH ANY OF THESE THREE MEN OUTSIDE THE STATION?
A: I THINK ONE TIME, JOE FAUS WANTED TO LOOK AT MY CAR, MY TRUCK, AND WE WALKED OUT --
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU TAKE HIM OUT TO LOOK AT IT?
A: I THINK I WAS LEAVING AT THAT TIME AND WE WENT OUT.
Q: AND DID YOU MEET ANY OTHER PEOPLE OUT IN THE PARKING LOT THAT YOU CAN REMEMBER?
A: NO.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU KNOW WHEN YOU WERE THERE IN 1986 THAT KATHLEEN BELL WORKED UPSTAIRS DIRECTLY OVER THE RECRUITING STATION IN A REAL ESTATE OFFICE?
A: I WAS TOLD THAT A FEMALE THAT CAME IN THERE AT ONE TIME WORKED IN THE CENTURY 21.
Q: UH-HUH.
BUT THAT FEMALE YOU SAW -- DID YOU SEE A FEMALE?
A: YES, I SAW A FEMALE COME IN THERE AT ONE TIME.
Q: AND THAT WAS SOMEONE OTHER THAN MISS BELL?
A: I DON'T KNOW. I PAID -- I DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO WHOEVER CAME IN THERE.
Q: ARE YOU NOW SAYING, SIR, THAT IF YOU'VE EVER SEEN KATHLEEN BELL, THAT YOU DIDN'T RECOGNIZE HER, BUT SHE MAY HAVE WALKED THROUGH THAT PLACE WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE? IS THAT YOUR PRESENT POSTURE?
A: WELL, SHE COULD HAVE.
Q: SHE COULD HAVE?
A: SHE COULD HAVE WALKED IN.
Q: DESCRIBE THE WOMAN YOU DID SEE.
A: I COULDN'T.
Q: BLOND? BRUNETTE? REDHEAD?
A: I COULDN'T, SIR.
Q: TALL? SHORT? STOUT? SLIM?
A: I PAID ALMOST NO ATTENTION. I SAW A FEMALE WALK IN LIKE SHE KNEW PEOPLE IN THE OFFICE AND I CONTINUED MY CONVERSATION WITH MR. FAUS.
Q: WELL, WITHOUT THAT INFORMATION, HOW DID YOU KNOW IT WAS A FEMALE?
A: WELL, I COULD TELL IT WAS A FEMALE, SIR. BUT I DIDN'T PAY ANY --
Q: YOU LOOKED AT LEAST THAT CLOSE?
A: WELL, I COULD TELL SHE WAS A FEMALE.
Q: OKAY.
A: EXCUSE ME?
Q: AND YOU COULD TELL THAT MISS BELL WAS A FEMALE, CAN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: FROM SEEING HER ON LARRY KING.
ARE YOU QUITE SURE THAT THEY ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME, THE FEMALE YOU SAW AND THE WOMAN ON THE ELMO?
A: AM I SURE?
Q: YEAH. ARE YOU SURE?
A: I'M NOT SURE.
Q: YOU'RE NOT?
A: I JUST DO NOT KNOW MISS BELL.
Q: SO YOU MAY HAVE SEEN MISS BELL AND YOU'RE NOW UNABLE TO RECOLLECT THAT; IS THAT SO?
A: NO. I DIDN'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THE FEMALE THAT CAME INTO THE RECRUITING OFFICE....
LUNCH RECESS
THE COURT: MR. BAILEY, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
MR. BAILEY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. BAILEY:
Q: ...ALL RIGHT.
NOW, IF WE MAY, LET'S RETURN TO THE CRIME SCENE.
YOU ARE MAKING NOTES WHEN AT AROUND 2:50 DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TELLS YOU YOU ARE OUT OF THE CASE, TRUE?
A: YES. I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME, BUT YES.
Q: HAD IT DAWNED ON YOU BY 2:50 A.M., DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT THIS WAS A CASE OF SOME MAGNITUDE, THIS HOMICIDE?
A: I DON'T THINK I UNDERSTOOD EXACTLY WHAT WOULD TRANSPIRE WITH THIS CASE, NO.
Q: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU AGAIN, HAD IT DAWNED ON YOU THAT THIS WAS A HOMICIDE OF SOME MAGNITUDE?
A: ANY DOUBLE HOMICIDE, YES.
Q: FAR AND AWAY THE MOST IMPORTANT IN WHICH YOU HAD EVER BEEN INVOLVED FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE NEWS MEDIA, TRUE?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW THAT AT THAT TIME.
Q: DID YOU HAVE SOME OTHER CASE IN YOUR MIND THAT WAS AS IMPORTANT AS THE MURDER OF THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON THAT YOU HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW HOW IMPORTANT THE MEDIA WOULD PLAY THAT CASE UP.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN A MURDER CASE THAT ATTRACTED THE NATIONAL MEDIA IN YOUR CAREER PRIOR TO THIS ONE?
A: NO, NO.
Q: AND ARE YOU SAYING YOU GAVE THIS MATTER AND ITS DIMENSION NO THOUGHT AS YOU DROVE IN THAT MORNING?
A: NO. I WAS WORRIED ABOUT HOW I WAS GOING TO APPROACH A DOUBLE HOMICIDE.
Q: WELL, DID YOU THINK THAT YOU WERE A QUALIFIED PERSON TO INVESTIGATE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OF THIS NATURE?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DIDN'T ASK FOR ANY HELP, DID YOU?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DID?
A: YES.
Q: OTHER DETECTIVES TO ASSIST YOU WHO WERE MORE EXPERIENCED?
A: WELL, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS THERE.
Q: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ASSIGNED. HE IS THE ONE THAT CALLED YOU?
A: WELL, I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEANT.
Q: YOU DIDN'T ASK PHILLIPS INTO THIS CASE, DID YOU?
A: NO, IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
Q: THAT'S RIGHT.
AND HAD IT NOT BEEN FROM AN ORDER FROM ON HIGH, YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN PERFECTLY CONTENT TO GO FORWARD AND TAKE CHARGE OF THIS INVESTIGATION AS THE FIELD MAN, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: WITH PHILLIPS AS THE HOMICIDE SUPERVISOR AND COORDINATOR, TRUE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU FELT THAT YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS UP TO THE JOB THAT CONFRONTED YOU, TRUE?
A: YES.
Q: AND IT WAS NEVER YOUR INTENT TO ASK THE BIG BOYS FROM ROBBERY/HOMICIDE TO COME HELP YOU, WAS IT?
A: AT THAT TIME, NO.
Q: AT ANY TIME DID YOU SUGGEST WE BETTER GET LANGE AND VANNATTER IN HERE?
A: WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW LANGE AND VANNATTER.
Q: DID YOU EVER SUGGEST TO ANYONE WE BETTER GET SOME OF THE MORE EXPERIENCED GUYS FROM DOWNTOWN WHO HANDLE LOTS OF HOMICIDES?
A: I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE LATER IN THE DAY, YES.
Q: DID YOU EVER SUGGEST THAT TO ANYONE BEFORE YOU WERE TOLD YOU ARE OFF THE CASE?
A: NO.
Q: DID NOT.
NOW, DID YOU EXPERIENCE ANY DISAPPOINTMENT WHATSOEVER WHEN PHILLIPS TOLD YOU YOU WERE BEING REMOVED FROM THIS MURDER CASE?
A: DID I SHOW ANY DISAPPOINTMENT?
Q: ANY DISAPPOINTMENT WHATSOEVER, DID YOU EXPERIENCE ANY?
A: WELL, I WAS DISAPPOINTED WE LOST THE CASE.
Q: SURE. DID IT GO A LITTLE FURTHER THAN THAT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: NO, NOT AT ALL.
Q: WEREN'T YOU A LITTLE BIT ANGRY THAT YOU WERE BEING SHOVED OUT OF A MURDER IN YOUR OWN TERRITORY?
A: NO, NO.
Q: DIDN'T BOTHER YOU A BIT?
A: NONE.
Q: WEREN'T YOU A FELLOW THAT HAD SPENT A GOOD PART OF HIS CAREER WAITING FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE, QUOTE, THE BIG ARREST?
A: NO....
Q: OKAY.
IN ANY EVENT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHAT YOU WERE IN FACT FEELING WHEN YOU WERE TOLD YOU WERE OUT OF THE CASE AND OTHERS WOULD TAKE OVER?
A: I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN LOSING A CASE THAT LOOKED VERY INTERESTING AND VERY COMPLEX.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, DID YOU DECIDE TO DO SOMETHING AS A RESULT OF THIS DISPLACEMENT?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WERE PROTECTED TO A DEGREE STARTING AT 2:10 BY THE EXPERTISE OF YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ON THE CRIME SCENE ATTEMPTING TO SOLVE THE HOMICIDE IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, I TAKE IT?
IS THAT SO?
A: I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE ASKING, SIR.
Q: WERE YOU ENTRUSTED WITH THE SUPERVISION, YOU AND PHILLIPS, OF THIS HOMICIDE AND ITS SOLUTION AND ITS CARE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AND IS IT NOT ROUTINE THAT SOMEBODY BE IN CHARGE OF A HOMICIDE AFTER IT IS DISCOVERED?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
THERE WAS TO ONE TO TAKE OVER THAT RESPONSIBILITY UNTIL AFTER FOUR O'CLOCK, WAS THERE?
A: NO, THERE WASN'T, SIR.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO BETWEEN 2:50 A.M. AND 4:05 WHEN PHILIP VANNATTER SHOWED UP ON THE SCENE...?
A: WAITED FOR THEIR ARRIVAL ON THE STREET IN FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: IN OTHER WORDS, THE WHOLE HOMICIDE SOLUTION PROCESS GROUND TO A HALT; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: AT THAT MOMENT WAITING FOR THEM, YES.
Q: IN OTHER WORDS, YOU WERE DISABLED TO TAKE ANY STEPS WHATSOEVER THAT YOU WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE TAKEN IF YOU WERE LEFT IN CHARGE FOR THAT HOUR AND TEN-MINUTE PERIOD?
IS THAT THE RULE IN YOUR DEPARTMENT?
A: YES. I WAS RELIEVED OF THE CASE.
Q: OKAY.
WERE YOU PROHIBITED FROM GIVING ANY DIRECTIONS OR TAKING ANY OF THE ROUTINE STEPS A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE MIGHT TAKE?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. AND WHO TOLD YOU THAT?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
GIVE US HIS EXACT ORDER TO YOU THAT ACCOMPANIED THE NOTICE THAT YOU WERE OUT AND WHAT WAS THE ORDER?
A: "ROBBERY/HOMICIDE IS TAKING THE CASE."
Q: DID HE SAY, "MARK, DON'T DO ANY MORE WORK ON THIS CASE"?
A: NO. I UNDERSTOOD THAT.
Q: WELL, YOU UNDERSTOOD IT HOW?
A: I HAVE BEEN ON THE DEPARTMENT LONG ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS.
Q: HOW MANY TIMES IN THE PAST HAD YOU BEEN PUSHED ASIDE IN FAVOR OF OTHER MORE SENIOR DETECTIVES, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: OH, THAT HAPPENS QUITE FREQUENTLY IN THE CITY.
Q: OF THE TEN PRIOR HOMICIDES IN WHICH YOU PARTICIPATED AS A DETECTIVE, IN HOW MANY OF THOSE DID YOU GET PUSHED OUT SO OTHERS COULD TAKE OVER? DO YOU REMEMBER?
A: YES.
Q: HOW MANY?
A: PROBABLY THREE OR FOUR.
Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WHO TOOK OVER IN THOSE CASES?
A: ROBBERY/HOMICIDE.
Q: FROM DOWNTOWN?
A: YES.
Q: AND UNDER SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES, BIG CASE, THAT SORT OF THING?
A: OUT OF SCOPE OF OUR ABILITIES OR LOGISTICS, YES.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, MY UNDERSTANDING WAS IN YOUR VIEW THIS CASE WAS NOT BEYOND THE SCOPE OF YOUR ABILITIES AND YOU WERE WILLING TO CONTINUE?
A: SIR, AT WHAT TIME ARE YOU ASKING ME TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION?
Q: PRIOR TO 2:50 WHEN YOU GOT THE NOTICE.
A: AT THAT TIME I FELT WE COULD PROBABLY HANDLE IT, YES.
Q: WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL OR BIZARRE ABOUT THESE MURDERS, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS WAS FORMERLY MARRIED TO A WELL-KNOWN AMERICAN ICON?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE SCENE AT THAT POINT, SO THAT WOULD BE HARD TO SAY.
Q: OKAY. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE OBSERVATIONS YOU HAD MADE.
WERE YOU SOMEWHERE TRAINED IN ANY OF THE COURSES YOU TOOK, OR ANY OF THE ON-THE-JOB TRAINING, TO RECOGNIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A WOUND OF INCISION AND A GUNSHOT WOUND?
A: WELL, THEY WILL LOOK SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WERE YOU TAUGHT ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOW KNIFINGS ARE ACCOMPLISHED OR WHAT THEY DO TO THE BODY, DEPENDING ON WHERE THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHED?
A: I DON'T SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER THAT, NO....
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU CONCERN YOURSELF, BEFORE YOU WERE OFF THE CASE, AS TO FROM THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU COULD SEE, WHICH VICTIM DIED FIRST?
A: I COULDN'T TELL ANY OF THAT FROM THE SCENE.
Q: DID YOU MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS?
A: I MADE NO DETAILED OBSERVATIONS THAT WOULD GIVE THAT INFORMATION.
Q: DID YOU DEDUCE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, FROM THE QUANTITY OF THE BLOOD SURROUNDING THE BODY OF THE FEMALE VICTIM, THAT SHE HAD BLED VERY PROFUSELY?
A: YES. I WOULD CONCLUDE THAT.
Q: AND COULD WELL HAVE SUFFERED A MASSIVE INJURY TO THE CAROTID ARTERIES IN THE NECK?
A: I COULDN'T ASSUME THAT.
Q: YOU COULDN'T?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE ALL THAT BLOOD CAME FROM?
A: SOMEWHERE IN THE HEAD AREA, BUT I COULDN'T SEE HER FACE.
Q: BUT A MASSIVE INJURY OF SOME SORT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ONE THAT PROBABLY PRODUCED DEATH VERY QUICKLY, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND PROBABLY SHE HAD NEVER MOVED FROM THE POINT AT WHICH SHE FELL, FROM THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU SAW? A FAIR DEDUCTION?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, DID YOU NOTICE THE BLOOD ON HER BACK IN DROPLETS?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: YOU NEVER SAW THAT?
A: NO.
Q: EITHER WHEN YOU WALKED UP TO THE
GATEPOST WITH PHILLIPS OR WHEN YOU CAME BACK AROUND THE WALKWAY AND OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND LOOKED DOWN FROM THE STEPS? YOU NEVER NOTICED THE BLOOD SPECKS ON THE BACK OF THE FEMALE VICTIM?
A: NO, SIR, I DIDN'T.
Q: HAVE YOU TO THIS DAY SEEN THEM IN ANY OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS YOU REVIEWED, INCLUDING THE ONES WE LOOKED AT IN COURT?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, IS IT PART OF YOUR TRAINING THAT YOU OBSERVE DETAILS OF THAT SORT WHEN YOU GO TO A HOMICIDE SCENE?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU MADE NO SUCH OBSERVATION?
A: NOT ON THE FIRST WALK THROUGH, NO.
Q: AS YOU SIT THERE TODAY, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OR NONEXISTENCE OF BLOOD DROPS ON THE BACK OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
A: I HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN ANY PHOTOS OF THOSE BLOOD DROPS.
Q: CAN YOU SAY WHETHER OR NOT THEY EVER EXISTED, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A: TO MY KNOWLEDGE I CANNOT.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU WERE AT ONE TIME THE LEAD FIELD DETECTIVE ON THE SCENE, IS THAT WHAT WE ARE TO UNDERSTAND?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU HAD TWO OPPORTUNITIES TO VIEW THAT BODY CLOSE UP WITH THE BACK POINTED UP TOWARD THE SKY, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THE BACK WAS CLEAN OR HAD SOME SUBSTANCE ON IT?
A: YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BLOOD DROPS?
Q: ANY SUBSTANCE? I DIDN'T ASK THAT, SIR.
A: BLOOD DROPS? NO, I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY SPECKS ON HER?
A: I DID NOT TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THE BACK, NO.
Q: ON EITHER OCCASION, THE VIEW FROM ABOVE OR THE VIEW OBLIQUELY?
A: NO....
Q: NO.
ALL YOU HAD DONE WAS TO OBSERVE THINGS THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN DISCOVERED BY OTHERS AND WERE POINTED OUT TO YOU, CORRECT?
A: EXCUSE ME. I WOULD LIKE TO CORRECT THAT.
Q: OKAY.
A: I SAW A PARTIAL FINGERPRINT ON THE BACK GATE AND I SAW TWO ADDITIONAL BLOOD DROPS ON THE GATE.
Q: OKAY.
SO THOSE ARE THINGS THAT YOU SAW PRESUMABLY FOR THE FIRST TIME AMONG YOURSELF AND YOUR COLLEAGUES?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU MADE DUE NOTE OF THOSE, DID YOU NOT?
A: YES, I DID....
Q: HAD YOU NOTICED A TELEPHONE IN THE KITCHEN?
A: YES.
Q: WERE YOU INTERESTED IN WHO IT WAS WHO HAD LAST SPOKEN WITH THE VICTIM, THE FEMALE VICTIM WHO LIVED ON THE PREMISES?
A: AT THAT EARLY IN THE INVESTIGATION IT HADN'T OCCURRED TO ME, NO.
Q: IT HADN'T OCCURRED TO YOU TO TRY TO GET IN TOUCH WITH WHOEVER WHO HAD LAST TALKED TO HER BEFORE HER DEATH?
A: NO.
Q: YOU KNEW OF COURSE THAT IF YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THAT, THAT WOULD ESTABLISH THE LAST MOMENT AT WHICH SHE WAS ALIVE, TRUE, OR COULD ESTABLISH?
A: I THINK THAT WOULD BE A POSSIBILITY.
Q: WELL, IF SOMEBODY WAS TALKING TO HER ON THE PHONE, THAT WOULD LEAD TO A FAIR INFERENCE THAT SHE WAS A LIVING PERSON, WOULDN'T IT?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: WOULDN'T IT?
A: IF I COULD IDENTIFY HER VOICE ON THE PHONE.
Q: JUST ASSUME THAT SOMEBODY WHO KNEW HER WAS TALKING TO HER ON THE PHONE, LIKE HER MOTHER, FOR INSTANCE, AT 9:44 P.M. IF YOU COULD HAVE LEARNED THAT, OFFICER FUHRMAN, THAT WOULD HELPED YOU IN SO FAR AS TIME OF DEATH; WOULD IT NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BETWEEN 9:44 AND WHEN THE BODIES WERE DISCOVERED AT MIDNIGHT, TRUE?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, DID YOU THINK TO PICK UP THE PHONE AND PUNCH THE REDIAL BUTTON?
A: I WOULDN'T HAVE PICKED UP THE PHONE, SIR.
Q: DID YOU THINK TO DO THAT?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: WAS THERE ANY RULE OF YOUR DEPARTMENT THAT SAYS YOU COULDN'T DO THAT TO FIND OUT WHO SHE HAD LAST DIALED?
A: WELL, I WOULDN'T HAVE WANTED TO PICK UP THE PHONE BEFORE IT HAD BEEN PRINTED.
Q: WELL, WEREN'T YOU AWARE THAT RISKE HAD ALREADY BEEN USING IT TO CALL THE STATION?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HE DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU HAD NO INTEREST IN THE FACT THAT A SPEED DIAL MECHANISM MIGHT HAVE DIRECTLY CALLED THE PARENTS OF THE TWO CHILDREN OR THE FATHER OF THE TWO CHILDREN WHO HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY?
A: AT THAT TIME, NO.
Q: DID NOT? OKAY.
WERE YOU ENGAGED TO ANY DEGREE IN AN EFFORT TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHO MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED THESE HOMICIDES?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WELL, WERE YOU TRAINED TO LOOK INITIALLY, WHEN A HOMICIDE OCCURS, STATISTICALLY WHO MIGHT THE PERPETRATORS LIKELY BE?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: RELATIVES, FRIENDS, PEOPLE CLOSE IN, AS OPPOSED TO TOTAL STRANGERS? ISN'T THAT AN AREA WHERE YOU ALWAYS LOOK, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE A RESIDENT, NO, THAT IS ALSO ONE OF THE VICTIMS.
Q: DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON LIVED IN THAT HOME?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AT THAT POINT.
Q: YOU KNEW IT WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AT 1:05 A.M. WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOLD YOU THAT, DIDN'T YOU?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: DID HE TELL YOU THIS IS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, A VICTIM?
A: NO. HE SAID IT MIGHT BE. WE BELIEVE IT IS.
Q: DID YOU EVER TESTIFY ON A PRIOR OCCASION THAT HE TOLD YOU IT WAS, WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION?
A: COULD HAVE BEEN.
Q: YOU MIGHT HAVE TESTIFIED TO THAT AND IF YOU DID, YOU NOW SAY THAT WAS WRONG?
A: NO. I'M SAYING THAT NOBODY KNEW IT WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON. THEY ASSUMED IT WAS.
Q: WAS THERE EVER A POINT, PRIOR TO YOUR BEING RELIEVED, WHEN YOU TOOK IT TO BE THE FACT THAT THIS WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, THE VICTIM WHO LIVED IN THE HOUSE UPON WHOSE PREMISES THE BODIES WERE FOUND?
A: I PERSONALLY COULD NOT CONCLUDE THAT, NO.
Q: DID NOT CONCLUDE? YOU STILL THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE A PASSERBY?
A: NO. WE DID NOT KNOW THE WHEREABOUTS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND NOBODY HAD VERIFIED THAT.
Q: DID YOU KNOW WHO LIVED IN THE HOUSE?
A: NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
Q: DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE WERE CHILDREN IN THE HOUSE WITH NO MOTHER WHEN THE POLICE GOT THERE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: THAT DIDN'T LEAD YOU TO THE CONCLUSION THAT NICOLE WAS OUT ON THE WALKWAY?
A: I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THE CHILDREN WERE ASKED.
Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY INTEREST AT ALL IN THE IDENTITY OF THE MALE VICTIM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT TRYING TO LEARN THAT IDENTITY?
A: I COULD DO NOTHING.
Q: YOU COULD DO NOTHING.
NOW, ARE YOU TALKING BEFORE 2:50 WHEN YOU HAD BEEN ON THE JOB FOR FORTY MINUTES OR AFTER?
A: EITHER.
Q: EITHER. WHY COULD YOU DO NOTHING PRIOR TO THE TIME YOU WERE RELIEVED?
A: PRIOR TO I COULDN'T APPROACH THE BODY AND LOOK FOR IDENTIFICATION, AND AFTERWARDS IT WAS NO LONGER MY CASE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
YOU COULDN'T APPROACH THE BODIES? YOU MEAN YOU COULDN'T DISTURB THEM TO GO FOR A WALLET?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
COULD YOU HAVE ASKED NEIGHBORS TO VIEW THE BODIES AND SEE IF ANYONE RECOGNIZED THE VICTIM?
A: IF WE HAD A POLAROID.
Q: NO. COULD YOU HAVE ASKED NEIGHBORS TO COME AND LOOK?
A: I WOULD NOT HAVE ASKED NEIGHBORS TO ENTER A CRIME SCENE.
Q: YOU WOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE CHECKED CARS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD ON THE OFF CHANCE THAT THIS MALE VICTIM HAD DRIVEN TO THE SCENE, AS OPPOSED TO WALKING?
A: HAD I KEPT THE CASE I'M SURE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE.
Q: BUT AS OF 2:50 YOU HADN'T DONE THAT EITHER?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: FROM 2:50 TO 4:05, AS I UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY, YOU WENT TO THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY AND STOOD THERE?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: FOR 65, 75 MINUTES YOU STOOD AT THE INTERSECTION WAITING FOR YOUR REPLACEMENT? IS THAT RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHAT DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DO DURING THAT 75-MINUTE PERIOD?
A: STAND THERE AND WAIT WITH ME.
Q: THE TWO OF YOU FOR 75 MINUTES STOOD STOCK STILL OR DID YOU WANDER AROUND A BIT?
A: OH, WE COULD HAVE WANDERED A LITTLE BIT ON THE STREET, BUT PREDOMINANTLY STAYED IN THAT GENERAL AREA.
Q: DID YOU GO BACK TO THE CRIME SCENE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU DO ANY MORE OBSERVATIONS?
A: AT ONE TIME I DID MAKE AN OBSERVATION FROM THE NORTH RESIDENCE.
Q: OH. I DON'T RECALL YOU MENTIONING THAT IN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.
DID YOU?
A: I BELIEVE I DID, YES, SIR.
Q: YOU DID?
A: YES.
Q: WELL, TELL US ABOUT IT. WHAT DID YOU DO FROM THE NORTH RESIDENCE?
A: LIEUTENANT SPANGLER HAD WALKED TO THE NORTH RESIDENCE OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND LOOKED BETWEEN THE -- THE IRON FENCE THAT WAS ABOUT THREE OR FOUR FEET FROM THE FEET OR BUTTOCKS AREA OF THE MALE VICTIM, AND HE NOTICED A PORTION OF BARE SKIN AND HE SAID, "YOU CAN SEE SOME TYPE OF A WOUND THERE" AND HE DIRECTED ME TO GO OVER THERE AND I DID, AND I LOOKED AT IT, AND IT APPEARED TO BE A LACERATION OF SOME SORT.
Q: WHERE?
A: I BELIEVE IT WAS ON HIS SIDE OR HIS BACK.
Q: UH-HUH.
AND WHERE WERE YOU STANDING WHEN YOU OBSERVED THAT?
A: THERE IS A WALKWAY THAT GOES ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE WHITE WROUGHT IRON FENCE THAT SEPARATES THOSE TWO RESIDENCES BETWEEN 875 AND THE ONE TO THE NORTH.
Q: WHOSE PROPERTY WERE YOU STANDING ON, AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT, WHEN YOU MADE THE OBSERVATION WITH LIEUTENANT SPANGLER?
A: I DON'T KNOW.
Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU MADE THAT OBSERVATION?
A: PROBABLY SOMEWHERE RIGHT AFTER 3:00, 3:30.
Q: LONG AFTER YOU WERE OFF THE CASE THEN?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WELL THEN DID YOU NOT SPEND THE ENTIRE TIME DOWN AT THE INTERSECTION WAITING FOR MESSERS. VANNATTER AND LANGE?
A: EXCEPT FOR THAT, NO.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
TELL ME HOW IT OCCURRED THAT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER TOOK YOU UP THERE AS A DETECTIVE NO LONGER ON THE CASE TO MAKE THIS OBSERVATION? DID HE COME TO YOU AT THE INTERSECTION?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT DID HE SAY?
A: WELL, HE JUST WENT UP TO VIEW THE SCENE FROM THE NORTH RESIDENCE, SO HE DIDN'T DISTURB IT.
Q: HOW LONG HAD HE BEEN THERE, IF YOU KNOW?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM ARRIVE?
A: I DON'T KNOW WHEN HE ARRIVED, NO.
Q: DID HE ARRIVE AFTER YOU OR BEFORE YOU?
A: AFTER.
Q: OKAY. BUT AS TO THE TIME, YOU DON'T KNOW?
A: I DO NOT.
Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
SO HE SAID SOMETHING TO YOU ABOUT A WOUND. DID HE INVITE YOU OR DIRECT YOU? HE WAS YOUR BOSS, WASN'T HE?
A: HE DIRECTED ME. HE SAID THAT THERE WAS SOME SORT OF A WOUND ON THE MALE VICTIM THAT IS VISIBLE.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU WALKED BACK UP BUNDY WHERE THE BLOODY PAW PRINTS WERE?
A: NO.
Q: WHERE DID YOU WALK?
A: I JUST WALKED UP THE STREET AND THEN ENTERED THE NORTH RESIDENCE.
Q: YOU STAYED OFF THE SIDEWALK?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WALKED UP THE STREET?
A: YES.
Q: AND WALKED AROUND WHAT WE CALL THE FENCE AGAINST WHICH THE MALE VICTIM'S BODY WAS KIND OF CRUMBLED?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
AND HOW FAR INTO THE PROPERTY DID YOU GO? HOW MANY RUNGS OF THE FENCE WOULD YOU ESTIMATE, VERTICAL WISE?
A: WHERE THE MALE VICTIM WAS.
Q: OKAY. CAN YOU PLACE YOURSELF WITH RESPECT TO THE FENCE?
A: DIRECTLY TO THE NORTH OF THE FENCE WHERE THE VICTIM WAS.
Q: ALL RIGHT. HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND THERE?
A: FIVE SECONDS.
Q: HOW LONG WAS LIEUTENANT SPANGLER THERE, IF HE WAS?
A: HE WASN'T, BUT WHEN HE WALKED OVER THERE I THINK HE WAS JUST THERE FOR A FEW MOMENTS.
Q: WHEN YOU WALKED UP THE STREET, WAS HE WALKING BESIDE YOU?
A: I DON'T RECALL IF HE DID OR HE DIDN'T.
Q: DID HE COME WITH YOU TO THE LOCATION TO WHOSE VIEW HE HAD COMMENDED YOU?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO.
Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE ALONE AT THAT POINT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU WALKED. DID YOU HAVE YOUR LITTLE FLASHLIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU USE IT?
A: YES.
Q: WERE THERE ANY OTHER LIGHTS BEING SHOWN ON THE AREA AT THAT TIME?
A: NO.
Q: WAS ANYBODY ELSE ON THE CRIME SCENE NEAR THE BODY INSIDE THE FENCE?
A: NO.
Q: WAS ANYBODY NEXT TO THE FENCE ON EITHER SIDE?
A: NO.
Q: WAS ANYBODY ACCOMPANYING YOU IN ANY WAY?
A: NO.
Q: FOR THAT VISIT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND HOW CLOSE TO YOU WAS THE NEAREST DETECTIVE OR OFFICER, AS YOU REMEMBER?
A: ON THE STREET.
Q: ON THE STREET?
A: YES.
Q: SO THAT WOULD BE, WHAT, TWENTY FEET AT LEAST?
A: PROBABLY LONGER THAN THAT.
Q: MORE THAN THAT?
A: YES.
Q: YES.
AND YOU THINK THAT YOU WERE THERE FOR ABOUT FIVE SECONDS?
A: JUST LONG ENOUGH TO LOOK AT THE WOUND.
Q: OKAY. AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO?
A: I JUST WENT BACK TO THE STREET.
Q: AND?
A: I MADE A COMMENT TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, "IT LOOKS LIKE A LACERATION."
Q: OKAY. IS THAT ALL THAT YOU SAID?
A: THAT IS ALL THAT I SAID.
Q: DID YOU SAY ANYTHING ELSE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU THEN GO BACK TO THE INTERSECTION?
A: YES.
Q: YOU HAD BEEN GONE FROM THE INTERSECTION LESS THAN WHAT, THREE OR FOUR MINUTES?
A: I DON'T EVEN THINK THAT LONG, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU STAY THERE WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS UNTIL DETECTIVE VANNATTER ARRIVED AT
ABOUT 4:05?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU TALK TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ABOUT THE CASE?
A: I DON'T RECALL TALKING ABOUT THE CASE, NO.
Q: DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU FELLAS WERE NO LONGER ON THE CASE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU TALK AT ALL OR DID YOU JUST STAND THERE FOR AN HOUR?
A: WELL, I TALKED, BUT I DON'T RECALL TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE.
Q: IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT ABSOLUTELY NO DETECTING WENT ON FROM 2:50 UNTIL 4:05, EXCEPT FOR YOUR LITTLE VISIT TO THE FENCE?
A: I WOULD SAY THAT IS ACCURATE.
Q: NOW, DID YOU TELL PHILLIPS THAT THIS LOOKED LIKE A KNIFE WOUND, THIS WOUND OR A SHARP INSTRUMENT?
A: I THINK THE TERM I USED WAS A LACERATION....
Q: NOW, IS THAT THE SUM TOTAL OF THE OBSERVATIONS YOU MADE ON THAT LITTLE EXCURSION? YOU SAW A KNIFE WOUND AND THAT IS IT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: NOTHING ELSE?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO.
Q: HOW ABOUT A COUPLE OF GLOVES, DETECTIVE?
A: EXCUSE ME?
Q: DID YOU SEE A COUPLE OF GLOVES UP THERE?
A: NO. I SAW ONE GLOVE.
Q: YOU DIDN'T MENTION THAT A MINUTE AGO WHEN I ASKED YOU IF YOU HAD SEEN ANYTHING ELSE? YOU NOW SAY YOU SAW ONE GLOVE?
A: WELL, I ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THE ONE GLOVE AND THE HAT.
Q: YOU HADN'T TALKED ABOUT THIS EXCURSION BEFORE, I DON'T BELIEVE, BUT I ASKED YOU IF YOU SAW ANYTHING OTHER THAN A LACERATION AND YOU SAID NO.
DO YOU WANT TO CORRECT THAT?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. AT WHAT TIME?
MR. BAILEY: THE ONLY VISIT HE MADE TO THE FENCE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.
Q: DID YOU MAKE MORE THAN ONE,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: MORE THAN ONE WHAT?
Q: TO THAT VANTAGE POINT TO VIEW GOLDMAN'S BODY.
DID YOU MAKE MORE THAN THE ONE THAT YOU MADE AT THE BEHEST OF DETECTIVE SPANGLER?
A: NO.
Q: THAT IS THE SOLE OPPORTUNITY YOU HAD TO OBSERVE FROM THAT POINT ON THE NORTH PROPERTY, TRUE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: I ASKED YOU IF YOU SAW ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE LACERATION. I BELIEVE YOU SAID NO, DID YOU?
A: I THOUGHT YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE BODY.
Q: YOU DID?
A: YES.
Q: YOU THOUGHT MY QUESTION RESTRICTED YOU FROM MENTIONING ANYTHING NOT CONNECTED WITH THE VICTIM'S BODY; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: WELL, I HAD ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THE OTHER EVIDENCE I OBSERVED AND I THOUGHT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT NEW ITEMS THAT I HAD SEEN....
Q: BUT YOU ARE SATISFIED THAT IN THE TRANSCRIPT OF YOUR DIRECT TESTIMONY THERE IS MENTION OF THIS VIEW, THE LACERATION AND THE GLOVE AND THE FENCE ON THE NORTH PROPERTY? ARE YOU SATISFIED OF THAT?
A: WELL, I'M NOT SURE IF I TESTIFIED TO THAT OR NOT. I THINK WE WERE WORKING UP TO THAT. WE MIGHT HAVE. I MIGHT BE INCORRECT.
Q: WE WORKED UP TO IT?
A: IN OTHER WORDS, WE WERE CHRONOLOGICALLY GOING THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE.
Q: WELL, LOOK, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN. THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THAT TESTIMONY, ISN'T THERE, THE TESTIMONY ABOUT THE VIEW THROUGH THE FENCE?
A: NO, THERE ISN'T.
Q: THERE IS A PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION, ISN'T THERE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: NO.
Q: WHEN DISCUSSING THIS EVENT IN THE PRELIMINARY HEARING AND TALKING ABOUT THE GLOVE, YOUR TONGUE SLIPPED AND YOU SAID "THEM," DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU HAVE EXAMINED THAT IN THE TRANSCRIPT, HAVEN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU KNOW IT HAS BEEN PLAYED ON VIDEO TO THE JURY? THE WORD "THEM" IS CLEAR?
A: YES.
Q: THAT IS A SLIP OF THE TONGUE?
A: NO.
Q: IT WAS NOT?
OKAY.
NOW, WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER CAME, YOU ARE OFF THE CASE?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I WAITED FOR DIRECTION FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.
Q: YOU DON'T SPEAK TO VANNATTER, ONLY THROUGH PHILLIPS?
A: WELL, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS MY BOSS.
Q: I UNDERSTAND THAT.... WAS THERE SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT YOU FELLAS, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN, SHOULD DO?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. AND WHAT WERE YOU DIRECTED TO DO?
A: OH, AT THAT TIME FROM DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
Q: YES.
A: I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WE WERE DIRECTED TO DO.
Q: WHAT DID YOU IN FACT DO?
A: AT SOME POINT WE LED DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE TO THE ROCKINGHAM ESTATE.
Q: YOU SAY AT SOME POINT. CAN YOU HELP US A LITTLE BETTER THAN THAT? WE ARE TALKING 4:05 NOW WHEN DETECTIVE LANGE ARRIVED?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: VANNATTER, I'M SORRY.
A: DO YOU WANT A TIME, WHAT TIME WE DID THAT?
Q: CAN YOU TELL US HOW LONG YOU STAYED AT BUNDY WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER BEFORE YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER GOT THERE, AS YOU SAID, AT 4:05, DETECTIVE LANGE, 4:25, AND AT FIVE O'CLOCK WE LEFT FOR ROCKINGHAM.
Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU WENT TO ROCKINGHAM, HOW WERE YOU PAIRED?
A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I WERE IN A VEHICLE; HE WAS DRIVING. LANGE AND VANNATTER WERE IN THEIR VEHICLE.
Q: DO YOU KNOW A PHOTOGRAPHER NAMED ROKAHR?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID YOU SEE HIM ARRIVE ON THE SCENE AT 3:25 THAT DAY?
A: YES. I RECALL HE WAS THERE FAIRLY EARLY.
Q: WERE YOU -- DID YOU OBSERVE HIM TAKING ANY PHOTOGRAPHS?
A: YES. I THINK HE WAS TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS OF SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS.
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU GIVE HIM ANY DIRECTION WITH RESPECT TO PHOTOGRAPHS THAT NEEDED TO BE TAKEN?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH HIM AT ALL?
A: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I DID.
Q: WHEN YOU LEFT FOR ROCKINGHAM DID HE GO WITH YOU?
A: NO.
Q: HE DID NOT?
A: NO.
Q: WAS THERE ANYONE WITH YOU, OTHER THAN THE FOUR DETECTIVES, INITIALLY?
A: NO.
Q: DID OTHERS COME AFTER YOU ARRIVED AND BEFORE YOU ENTERED THE PROPERTY?
A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS A UNIFORMED VEHICLE, POLICE VEHICLE, THAT ARRIVED JUST AS WE HAD ALREADY MADE ENTRY, AND THEY STAYED AT THE FRONT GATE....
Q: DID ANYONE PEER THROUGH THE GATE TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANYBODY INSIDE ON THE PREMISES, IF YOU CAN RECALL, ANY OF THE FOUR OF YOU?
A: YOU CAN JUST SEE RIGHT THROUGH THE GATE. YOU DIDN'T NEED TO PEER.
Q: DID ANYBODY GO UP AND TAKE A LOOK, IF YOU KNOW?
A: WE WERE STANDING IN FRONT OF THE GATE.
Q: ALL OF YOU?
A: YES.
Q: YOU HAD A FAIRLY SWEEPING VIEW OF THE INTERIOR OF THE WALLS?
A: YOU MEAN OF THE DRIVEWAY, SIR, LOOKING SOUTH.
Q: WERE YOU WEARING A SIDEARM THAT NIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU WITHDRAW IT AT ANY TIME?
A: NO.
Q: DURING THE ENTIRE NIGHT?
A: I COULD HAVE ON THE PATHWAY, BUT I DON'T HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION IF I DID OR I DIDN'T.
Q: WELL, YOU HAVE NEVER, NEVER MENTIONED DRAWING YOUR SIDEARM UP TO THIS POINT IN PRIOR TESTIMONY, HAVE YOU?
A: NO.
Q: DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION NOW, AS YOU SIT THERE, THAT YOU DREW A SIDEARM?
A: I CAN'T REMEMBER IF I DID OR I HAD MY HAND ON IT, BUT NO, I CAN'T.
Q: YOU JUST DON'T HAVE A MEMORY ABOUT THAT, TRUE?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: OKAY.
DID ANYBODY DIRECT YOU TO GO DOWN AND LOOK AT THE BRONCO?
A: NO.
Q: THAT WAS SOMETHING YOU DECIDED TO DO ON YOUR OWN?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THAT IS A CAR THAT YOU HAD SEEN AS YOU DROVE BY IT APPROACHING ROCKINGHAM TRAVELING NORTH COMING UP FROM SUNSET?
A: YES.
Q: HAD YOU ANY REASON, AS YOU PASSED BY IT, TO ASSOCIATE IT WITH MR. SIMPSON?
A: NO.
Q: JUST BASED ON LOOKING AT IT?
A: NO.
Q: HAD YOU NOTICED THAT THERE WERE VEHICLES PARKED INSIDE THE SURROUNDS, THAT IS, INSIDE THE FENCE ENCLOSURE?
A: YES, I NOTICED VEHICLES INSIDE.
Q: HAD YOU BEEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY THEM IN THE LIGHT THAT WAS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE LARGE LUXURY VEHICLE WAS, BUT I COULD TELL BY THE LINES OF THE ONE VEHICLE IT WAS A SAAB.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THE LARGE VEHICLE LOOKED FOREIGN MADE?
A: YES, IT WAS FOREIGN MADE.
Q: IT LOOKED EXPENSIVE?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU WALKED DOWN TO THE BRONCO, DID YOU ASK PERMISSION FROM LIEUTENANT VANNATTER BEFORE YOU DID THAT?
A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER? NO.
Q: I'M SORRY, DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: NO.
Q: DETECTIVE LANGE?
A: NO.
Q: THIS WAS ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU WERE DETECTING AT THIS POINT, I TAKE IT?
A: I'M SORRY?
Q: YOU WERE DETECTING?
A: I WAS DETECTING.
Q: YOU HAD BEEN FROZEN IN YOUR FUNCTION BY THE NOTICE OF DISMISSAL BUT NOW YOU ARE BACK AGAIN DETECTING, TRUE?
A: NO. AT THAT POINT I WASN'T DETECTING; I WAS JUST WALKING.
Q: YOU WEREN'T JUST BEING NOSY, WERE YOU?
A: I DON'T THINK NOSY. I WAS WALKING AND I NOTICED SOMETHING ON THE BRONCO AND I CONTINUED WALKING TOWARDS IT.
Q: WELL, WAS THIS A WALK THAT YOU TOOK TO GET SOME EXERCISE AND JUST HAPPENED TO TAKE YOU BY THE BRONCO? IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED?
A: IT WASN'T A WALK FOR EXERCISE. I JUST WALKED DOWN TO THE CORNER AND LOOKED DOWN ROCKINGHAM, SAW THE BRONCO.
Q: WAS IT A WALK SPECIFICALLY TO INSPECT THE BRONCO FOR SOME PURPOSE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: NO.
Q: IT WASN'T?
A: NO.
Q: IS IT SIMPLY THAT YOU WERE IN ITS VICINITY AND DECIDED TO LOOK AROUND ONCE YOU GOT THERE?
A: I WAS WALKING DOWN TOWARD THE ROCKINGHAM GATE. AS I WALKED TOWARD THE BRONCO I NOTICED A FEW THINGS.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WHILE YOU WERE WALKING TOWARD THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, WERE YOU GOING TO TRY TO GET IN THAT GATE?
A: NO.
Q: HAD YOU EXAMINED IT TO SEE IF ACCESS WAS POSSIBLE?
A: I DON'T THINK ACCESS WAS ON MY MIND AT THAT POINT.
Q: HAD ANYBODY DIRECTED YOU TO CHECK OUT THE ROCKINGHAM GATE TO SEE IF YOU COULD GET IN?
A: NO, NO.
Q: AND AS YOU WALKED BY THE BRONCO, ON THE STREET SIDE, TOWARD THE CENTER OF THE STREET, HOW LIGHT WAS IT AT THAT POINT?
A: IT WAS GETTING LIGHT, BUT IT WASN'T COMPLETELY DAWN YET.
Q: CAN YOU HELP US AS TO WHAT TIME IT MAY HAVE BEEN WHEN YOU WALKED BY THE BRONCO, TIME OF DAY?
A: 5:20, 5:25.
Q: OKAY.
AND DO YOU THINK THAT THE DAWN WAS BEGINNING TO COME, SOME NATURAL LIGHT WAS ON THE SCENE AT THE TIME?
A: MAYBE SOMEWHAT, YES.
Q: WELL, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO SEE INTO THE BRONCO WITHOUT YOUR FLASHLIGHT YOU TOLD US?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: HAD YOU BEEN WANDERING DOWN THE STREET WITH THAT LITTLE BITTY FLASHLIGHT ON, JUST KIND OF POINTING OFF TO THE SIDE?
A: NO.
Q: DID SOMETHING CAUSE YOU TO STOP AND TURN YOUR FLASHLIGHT ON TO INSPECT THE BRONCO?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT WAS THAT?
A: A LITTLE SPECK ABOVE THE DOOR HANDLE ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE.
Q: IS THAT SOMETHING THAT CAUGHT YOUR EYE OR SOMETHING THAT YOU DISCOVERED BY INSPECTION?
A: I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAUGHT MY EYE.
Q: AND AT THAT POINT YOU TURN ON YOUR FLASHLIGHT TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK?
A: YES, THEN I INSPECTED.
Q: OKAY.
AND AFTER YOU SEE THAT, YOU LOOK FURTHER, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU SEE SOME ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE THAT YOU THINK MIGHT BE BLOOD?
A: YES.
Q: WOULD YOU DESCRIBE ONCE AGAIN WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU SAW AND WHERE YOU SAW IT; NOT THE ONE ABOVE THE DRIVER'S DOOR HANDLE, BUT ELSEWHERE?
A: IN THE DOORSILL OF THE DRIVER'S DOOR DIRECTLY BELOW THE DOOR, VISIBLE FROM THE OUTSIDE ON THE EDGE OF THE DOORSILL, THREE OR FOUR LITTLE MARKS, LITTLE LINES, TRANSLUCENT RED.
Q: AND TO WHOM, OTHER THAN THE DETECTIVES, DID YOU DIRECT ATTENTION AS TO THE THESE LITTLE MARKS?
A: WHO DID I SHOW THOSE MARKS TO?
Q: YEAH.
A: DENNIS FUNG, THE CRIMINALIST.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU RECOMMEND TO HIM THAT THEY WOULD BE WORTH PHOTOGRAPHING?
A: I MADE NO RECOMMENDATIONS.
Q: DID YOU EVER SEE A PHOTOGRAPHER AT ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES.
Q: WHO WAS THAT?
A: I SAW MR. ROKAHR THERE.
Q: WHEN?
A: HE CAME BACK UP WITH ME AFTER I RETURNED TO THE BUNDY SCENE.
Q: UH-HUH.
A: SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOME TIME AFTER 7:30.
Q: DID YOU EVER SPEAK TO HIM ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHS?
A: NO.
Q: DO YOU KNOW IF THERE IS ANYWHERE TODAY A PHOTOGRAPH OF WHAT YOU SAY YOU SAW ON THE LOWER PART OF THE BRONCO BELOW THE DOOR?
A: I HAVE NOT SEEN A PHOTOGRAPH.
Q: OKAY. WAS THAT BRONCO LOCKED,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: I DID NOT TRY TO OPEN THE DOOR.
Q: EVER?
A: NO.
Q: NEVER TOUCHED THE DOOR HANDLE THAT WHOLE DAY, THE 13TH?
A: I DID NOT.
Q: OR ANY PART OF THE CAR?
A: I LAID THE BACK OF MY PALM ON THE HOOD OF THE CAR TO SEE IF THE VEHICLE WAS WARM, YES, SIR.
Q: TAKING ITS TEMPERATURE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YES.
A: OTHER THAN THAT, NO.
Q: OKAY.
WELL, YOU TOUCHED THE VEHICLE WHEN YOU CUPPED YOUR FLASHLIGHT IN ORDER TO SEE IN THROUGH THE TINTED WINDOW YOU HAVE DESCRIBED?
A: NO.
Q: YOU DIDN'T TOUCH IT?
A: NO.
Q: YOU SIMPLY CAME CLOSE?
A: I TRIED TO CUP THE LIGHT SO I COULD GET A VIEW INSIDE.
Q: OKAY.
AND YOU THEN BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE OTHER DETECTIVES, AT LEAST I BELIEVE TOM LANGE, THE FACT THAT YOU HAD MADE THIS OBSERVATION?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SHOW IT TO ANYONE ELSE?
A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
Q: UH-HUH.
A: AND DETECTIVE LANGE AND I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS CAME DOWN AT SOME POINT, BUT I'M NOT SURE WHEN.
Q: OKAY.
THAT WAS AS A RESULT OF YOUR RETURNING TO THE ASHFORD GATE, MENTIONING WHAT YOU HAD SEEN AND THEN WALKING BACK WITH YOU TO THE BRONCO?
A: I'M NOT SURE I WALKED ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE ASHFORD GATE. I THINK I WALKED TO THE INTERSECTION OF ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM AND MOTIONED.
Q: OKAY. BUT THEN YOU WENT BACK WITH THEM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: TO POINT OUT WITH YOUR FLASHLIGHT WHAT YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD SEEN?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU ALSO SHOW THEM THE INTERIOR WITH THE SHOVEL AND THE PLASTIC?
A: YES. I'M NOT SURE HOW WELL THEY SAW IT, BUT I SHOWED THEM TO THE BEST I COULD, YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
OF WHAT SIGNIFICANCE DID YOU DRAW AT THAT TIME FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE SHOVEL AND THE BRONCO?
A: WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW. I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THAT SHOVEL MEANT.
Q: AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE PLASTIC MEANT?
A: NO.
Q: BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW THEN AND DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL SATURDAY THAT IT CAME WITH THE CAR, RIGHT?
A: THAT'S TRUE.
Q: OKAY.
IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT IT WAS NOT AN IMPORTANT MATTER THAT WAS DISCUSSED BY YOU FELLAS, THE PRESENCE OF THE SHOVEL?
A: I DON'T KNOW IF IT COULD BE ON ITS OWN -- IT COULD BE IMPORTANT. COLLECTIVELY IT COULD HAVE SOME IMPACT.
Q: ALL RIGHT. WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM, IF YOU KNOW?
A: COMMANDER BUSHEY, I BELIEVE.
Q: OKAY. HOW WAS THAT CONVEYED TO YOU? YOU DIDN'T SPEAK TO THE COMMANDER, DID YOU?
A: NO, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DID.
Q: OKAY.
AND HOW DID YOU LEARN THAT YOU WERE GOING TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: I WAS TOLD WHEN I CAME BACK FROM TALKING TO OFFICER RISKE, "GET IN THE CAR."
Q: JUST SAID, "GET IN THE CAR"?
A: WELL, RON SAID, "LET'S GO," AND I HEARD DETECTIVE LANGE AND VANNATTER, I BELIEVE IT WAS DETECTIVE LANGE SAID, "RON, MARK, LET'S GO."
RON SAID "LET'S GO." I GOT INTO THE CAR AND THEN HE TOLD ME WHEN WE GOT IN THE VEHICLE.
Q: WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
A: HE SAID WE WERE GOING TO GO MAKE A NOTIFICATION, "TAKE US UP TO THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE."
Q: HAD YOU TALKED TO ANYONE ON THE SCENE THAT NIGHT, ANYONE AT ALL, ABOUT YOUR PRIOR EXPERIENCES WITH MR. SIMPSON IN '85 OR '89, EITHER OR BOTH?
A: YES, THE '85 INCIDENT.
Q: TO WHOM DID YOU CONVEY THAT?
A: WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ON THE PHONE, HE BROKE AWAY, IT APPEARED TO BE IN MID CONVERSATION, AND ASKED IF I KNEW HOW TO GET UP TO THE SIMPSON HOUSE ON ROCKINGHAM.
Q: BACK UP A MINUTE, IF WE COULD.
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS NOW ON THE PHONE AT ABOUT FIVE O'CLOCK?
A: I THINK IT WAS A LITTLE BEFORE THAT.
Q: CELLULAR PHONE?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND SO SOMEONE IS DISCUSSING SOMETHING THAT CAUSES HIM TO ASK YOU IF YOU KNOW YOUR WAY TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM AT THAT TIME? THAT YOU HAD BEEN THERE ONCE BEFORE?
A: I WAS THERE ON A FAMILY DISPUTE A LONG TIME AGO, AND YEAH, I PROBABLY COULD GET UP THERE.
Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU TOLD BY DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS THE PURPOSE IN THE TRIP TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: WELL, WHEN WE GOT IN THE VEHICLE HE TOLD ME IT WAS TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION.
Q: UH-HUH.
NOW, WERE YOU LOOKING, AS YOU PROCEEDED WITH THE CASE -- I TAKE IT AT THIS POINT YOU WERE SORT OF BACK IN THE CASE? WAS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, DID YOU KNOW THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAID ON JULY 6TH THAT YOU WERE IN THE CASE ALWAYS UP TO AND INCLUDING THAT DAY?
A: WELL, I THINK IN MY MIND I KNOW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND HE IS GOING TO RENDER ANY ASSISTANCE TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE HE CAN UNTIL THEY WANT US RELIEVED, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT WE WERE DOING.
Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, WERE YOU ON ACTIVE DUTY, SO TO SPEAK?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE PURPOSE WAS OF GOING TO ROCKINGHAM?
A: WHEN I GOT IN THE VEHICLE I DID, YES.
Q: YES. WAS IT TO LOOK FOR VICTIMS OR SUSPECTS OR ANYTHING OF THAT SORT?
A: NO. TO MY KNOWLEDGE IT WAS NOTIFICATION.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
HAD ANYONE DETERMINED, AS OF THAT POINT, WHETHER MR. SIMPSON WAS IN TOWN?
A: NO.
Q: WAS THE FACT THAT HE TRAVELED A GREAT DEAL EVER DISCUSSED BY THE DETECTIVES BEFORE YOU WENT UP THERE?
A: I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT. I DIDN'T HEAR ANYTHING.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TOLD US YOU BECAME SUFFICIENTLY CONCERNED THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES DECIDED IT WAS NECESSARY TO FORCIBLY ENTER THE PREMISES BY CLIMBING OVER THE WALL, RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: AND THAT WAS BECAUSE OF SOME CONCERN ON YOUR PART THAT THERE MIGHT BE SUSPECTS OR VICTIMS ON THE PREMISES, SOMEBODY IN NEED OF HELP?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: IS THAT SO?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
YOU WENT TO THE FRONT DOOR AND COULDN'T RAISE ANYONE, CORRECT?
A: ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AFTER WE ENTERED?
Q: YES, AFTER YOU ALL GOT INSIDE.
A: YES, SIR.
Q: THEN WALKED AROUND ON THE NORTH PATH TO WHAT TURNED OUT TO BE THE BUNGALOW ROOM BELONGING TO KATO KAELIN?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: WHEN THE OTHERS WENT TO TALK TO ARNELLE, YOU REMAINED BEHIND?
A: YES.
Q: WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT WHO KAELIN WAS?
A: YES.
Q: WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER HE HAD THE RIGHT TO BE THERE?
A: HE APPEARED THAT -- IT JUST APPEARED THAT HE HAD THE RIGHT TO BE THERE. I JUST DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS.
Q: WELL, WAS HE A SUSPECT AT THAT POINT?
A: I DON'T THINK -- I THINK HE WAS NOT A SUSPECT, BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM AT THAT POINT.
Q: OKAY. WHY DID YOU GIVE HIM A SOBRIETY TEST?
A: TO MAKE SURE HE WASN'T UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL.
Q: AND WHY WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT...?
A: I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE HE WASN'T UNDER THE INFLUENCE.
Q: AND IF HE HAD BEEN, WHAT WERE YOU GOING TO DO THEN?
A: WELL, I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE INTERVIEWED HIM RIGHT THEN OR MAYBE I WOULD HAVE TAKEN HIM INSIDE. I DON'T KNOW.
Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU LOOKED AROUND THE PREMISES?
A: YES.
Q: WHERE HE WAS?
A: YES.
Q: AND MEANWHILE THE OTHERS, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAD LEFT AND GONE INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEY WERE.
Q: WELL, THEY WEREN'T WITH ARNELLE ANY MORE WHEN YOU CAME OUT, WERE THEY?
A: WELL, WHEN I CAME OUT, I LOOKED TO MY RIGHT AND I DIDN'T SEE THEM, SO I LOOKED TO MY LEFT AND I SAW AN OPEN DOOR.
Q: UH-HUH.
KATO WENT WITH YOU INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A: YES.
Q: AND AS YOU PASSED BY THE KITCHEN, YOU HAD ALREADY SEATED HIM IN THE BAR STOOL?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU SAW PHILLIPS ON THE PHONE?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU KNOW HE WAS TALKING TO MR. SIMPSON?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS TALKING TO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU INQUIRE OF ANY OF THESE FELLOWS WHAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS DOING?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE LANGE COMFORTING ARNELLE?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT DID YOU SEE HIM DOING? DID YOU SEE HIM IN THE ROOM?
A: I BELIEVE HE WAS IN THE ROOM, BUT I SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER. THAT IS WHO I FOCUSED ON.
Q: DID YOU SEE ARNELLE IN THE ROOM, MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER?
A: I BELIEVE THAT SHE WAS, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, HAD YOU INTERROGATED KATO IN HIS ROOM ABOUT WHAT HE MIGHT KNOW THAT COULD HELP YOU WITH THE SOLUTION OF THIS CRIME?
A: I ASKED HIM A FEW QUESTIONS. THEY WEREN'T DIRECTLY CRIME SCENE QUESTIONS, NO.
Q: WELL, YOU HAD BEEN TRAINED TO INTERROGATE PEOPLE, HADN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU ALSO HAD INTERROGATED MANY SUSPECTS IN YOUR CAREER, HAD YOU NOT?
A: YES.
Q: INTERROGATION IS AN IMPORTANT ART OF POLICE PROCEDURE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WERE YOU QUESTIONING HIM WITH A VIEW TOWARD LEARNING SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT IN THE CASE?
A: COULD BE, YES.
Q: LOOKING FOR SOME LITTLE SLIP OF THE TONGUE HE MIGHT MAKE THAT COULD BE SIGNIFICANT?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR, SIR.
Q: YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR?
A: NO.
Q: BUT DID YOU QUESTION KATO FOR A TIME AND THEN YOU CAME OUT TO THE KITCHEN, SEATED HIM IN A BAR STOOL AND SAID TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, "YOU OUGHT TO GO TALK TO HIM"?
A: YES.
Q: WHY DID YOU THINK THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER, YOUR SUPERIOR, SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO GO TALK TO KATO KAELIN ON A BAR STOOL?
A: WELL, HE COULD TAKE THAT INTERVIEW AND PUT IT TO A FORMAL INTERVIEW ON PAPER WHERE --
Q: YOU COULDN'T DO THAT?
A: I COULDN'T AT THAT POINT UNLESS I'M DIRECTED TO BY DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
Q: OKAY. BUT INSTEAD YOU DIRECTED HIM, IT SOUNDS LIKE?
A: I DIDN'T DIRECT HIM. I JUST SAID, "YOU MIGHT WANT TO TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR OR TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR," SOMETHING ALONG THAT --
Q: WHAT WAS DETECTIVE LANGE DOING AT THIS POINT? WAS HE TIED UP DOING ANYTHING, IF YOU KNOW?
A: HE WASN'T IN THE FOREFRONT OF THE KITCHEN; DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS. I SAW HIM FIRST.
Q: UH-HUH. NOW, YOU THEN WALKED OUT THE FRONT DOOR?
A: YES.
Q: YOU HAD NO DIRECTION FROM ANYONE TO DO THAT, DID YOU?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: THIS AGAIN WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ON HIS OWN, WAS IT NOT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU HAD AN IDEA THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO CHECK OUT KATO'S CLAIM THAT SOME UNUSUAL NOISE HAD OCCURRED AT ABOUT A QUARTER OF 11:00 THAT NIGHT ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE WALL OF KATO KAELIN'S ROOM?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID KATO TELL YOU, BY THE WAY, THAT O.J. HAD LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT IN THE LIMO HE HAD SEEN WHEN HE CAME OUT THAT NIGHT AFTER HEARING THE NOISE AT AROUND 11:00 P.M.
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU EVER ASK HIM WHAT A LIMO WAS DOING THERE AT 11:00 P.M.
A: NO. I CUT HIS CONVERSATION OFF AND BROUGHT HIM INTO THE HOUSE.
Q: AS A MATTER OF FACT, YOU ASKED HIM IF HE HAD HEARD ANYTHING UNUSUAL AND THEN YOU CUT HIM OFF AND SAID, "WHO DRIVES THAT BRONCO," DIDN'T YOU?
A: I BELIEVE I DID.
Q: WHY DID YOU CUT HIM OFF?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: YOU INTERRUPTED AN ANSWER TO GET A DIFFERENT ANSWER? WAS THIS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION, WHO DRIVES THAT BRONCO?
A: NO. HE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.
Q: HUM?
A: HE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.
Q: I KNOW THAT.
IN ORDER TO GET THAT ANSWER YOU CUT HIM OFF FROM ANSWERING THE PREVIOUS QUESTION WHICH WAS DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPEN TONIGHT OR ANYTHING UNUSUAL.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. WHY WAS WHO DRIVES THE BRONCO SO IMPORTANT AS TO INTERRUPT A WITNESS?
A: I CAN'T GIVE YOU --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. IT IS THE OPPOSITE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU ASKED NO QUESTIONS ABOUT HIM HAVING SEEN MR. SIMPSON THAT NIGHT OR AT ANY GIVEN TIME?
A: NO. HE HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY ASKED ABOUT IF HE KNEW MR. SIMPSON WAS IN THE HOUSE AND HE SAID HE DID NOT.
Q: NO, BUT THEN HE TOLD YOU,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THAT HE HAD BEEN AWAKENED OR HAD HIS ATTENTION DRAWN, AS HE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE TO SOMEONE, BY A STRANGE NOISE, PICTURE THAT SHUTTERED, SOMETHING YOU SAY SOUNDED LIKE CRASHING INTO A WALL AND THAT HE THEN WENT OUTSIDE AND SAW A LIMOUSINE THERE AT ABOUT ELEVEN O'CLOCK?
ISN'T THAT WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
A: SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT, YES.
Q: AND YOU DIDN'T ASK HIM WHY THE LIMOUSINE WAS THERE?
A: NO.
Q: AND YOU DIDN'T ASK HIM IF MR. SIMPSON HAD BEEN THE ONE USING THE LIMOUSINE?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: KATO KAELIN DIDN'T LOOK TO YOU LIKE A FELLOW WHO RODE AROUND IN LIMOUSINES, DID HE?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: DID HE?
A: IN THIS AREA OF LOS ANGELES, I DON'T THINK COULD YOU SAY THAT.
Q: DO YOU THINK MAYBE HE ORDERED THE LIMOUSINE AND SOMEHOW STAYED BEHIND; IS THAT IT?
A: I HAD NO IDEA, SIR.
Q: HE DIDN'T TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT USING IT, DID HE?
A: THE LIMOUSINE?
Q: YEAH.
A: NO, HE DIDN'T.
Q: NOW, WAS IT FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCOVERING WHY THE LIMOUSINE WAS THERE THAT YOU ASKED VANNATTER TO TALK TO HIM?
A: NO. I WANTED VANNATTER TO TALK TO KATO ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT HE SAW AND HEARD.
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WERE YOU NOT CONCERNED THAT ON THE PREMISES THERE MIGHT BE SUSPECTS THAT NIGHT, VIOLENT VICIOUS PEOPLE?
A: I THINK I WAS LEANING MORE TOWARD ANOTHER VICTIM THAN I WAS A SUSPECT.
Q: HAVE YOU NOT TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE CONCERNED THAT THERE WERE SUSPECTS THERE THAT NIGHT?
A: I SAID VICTIMS. I PREFACED IT WITH VICTIMS, POSSIBLY OF SUSPECTS --
Q: HAD YOU NOT TESTIFIED THAT YOU WERE CONCERNED THAT THERE WERE SUSPECTS?
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT. MR. BAILEY, HE WAS STILL ANSWERING THE QUESTION.
MR. BAILEY: I'M SORRY.
THE WITNESS: I PREFACED THAT WITH MY FIRST CONCERN WAS VICTIMS, HOSTAGE, POSSIBLE SUSPECT, YES.
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: WHAT DID YOU MEAN EARLIER TODAY WHEN YOU SAID I DIDN'T WANT MY BACK TURNED TO THE OTHER END OF THE ALLEY?
A: ONCE I FOUND A GLOVE, THAT PIVOTED TOWARDS MORE SUSPECT THAN VICTIM.
Q: NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU WENT OUT THERE IN THE ALLEY WHERE YOU HAD NEVER BEEN BEFORE, DID YOU NOT?
A: WHAT ALLEY, SIR?
Q: ALONG THE CHAINLINK FENCE WHERE KATO SAID HE HEARD A NOISE?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: DID YOU NOT?
A: YES, I WENT ON THAT PATHWAY.
Q: YOU WALKED THERE BY YOURSELF, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU WERE WEARING NO BULLET PROOF VEST, CORRECT?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: YOU HAD THREE DETECTIVES WHO WERE ARMED IN THE HOUSE AND DIDN'T TELL ANY OF THEM WHERE YOU WERE GOING, CORRECT?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: YOU DIDN'T ASK ANY OF THEM TO COME WITH YOU TO COVER FOR YOU, CORRECT?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: YOU HAD PREVIOUSLY STATED THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY THAT DANGEROUS PEOPLE WERE ON THE PREMISES, HAD YOU NOT?
A: I NEVER USED THOSE WORDS.
Q: WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO THE LOCATION WHERE KATO SAID HE HEARD THE NOISE, YOU WERE ABOUT 230 FEET FROM THE BRONCO, WEREN'T YOU?
A: I DON'T KNOW THE DISTANCE, SIR.
Q: YOU CAN WALK THAT IN A MINUTE, CAN'T YOU?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: 235 FEET?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: CAN YOU WALK THAT IN A MINUTE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU KNOW AT THAT TIME THERE WAS BLOOD IN THE BRONCO?
A: NO.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER TESTIFIED THAT THERE WAS BLOOD IN THE BRONCO?
A: I'M NOT SURE IF WE TESTIFIED TO THAT IN THE PRELIM OR NOT.
Q: DID YOU WIPE A GLOVE IN THE BRONCO, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: NO.
Q: YOU DID NOT?
A: NO.
Q: WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO WHERE THE GLOVE WAS EVENTUALLY POINTED OUT TO THE OTHER DETECTIVES, HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND THERE BEFORE YOU WENT BACK TO TALK TO THEM?
A: TEN, FIFTEEN MINUTES TOTALLY.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO FOR TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES ON THAT SCENE?
A: LOOKED FOR A VICTIM OR A SUSPECT.
Q: YOU LOOKED FOR A VICTIM OR SUSPECT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DIDN'T DRAW YOUR GUN, CORRECT?
A: I TOLD YOU I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: WELL, IF YOU HAD DRAWN YOUR WEAPON AND WERE AFRAID, YOU WOULD REMEMBER THAT, WOULDN'T YOU, DETECTIVE?
A: SIR, AFTER TWENTY YEARS YOU DRAW THAT WEAPON UNCONSCIOUSLY --
Q: DID YOU DRAW --
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. CAN THE WITNESS BE ALLOWED TO FINISH HIS ANSWER?
MR. BAILEY: I THOUGHT HE HAD.
Q: DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING MORE TO ADD?
A: YES, I DO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHAT IS IT?
A: AFTER TWENTY YEARS YOU DRAW THAT WEAPON, YOU LAY IT DOWN TO THE SIDE OF YOUR LEG, YOU WALK, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU ARE DOING IT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU WALK BACK INTO AN AREA WHERE YOU KNEW NO ONE ELSE HAD BEEN BECAUSE THERE WERE COBWEBS THERE?
A: NO. I TESTIFIED I DIDN'T KNOW IF ANYBODY HAD BEEN BACK THERE WALKING UPRIGHT. I DIDN'T KNOW IF SOMEBODY HAD CRAWLED.
Q: ARE YOU NOW SAYING THERE ARE NO COBWEBS DOWN LOW?
A: I DIDN'T GO DOWN LOW, SIR. I WAS UPRIGHT.
Q: YOU ONLY FELT THEM IN YOUR FACE?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DON'T RECALL WHETHER YOU HAD YOUR WEAPON AT THE READY OR WHETHER IT WAS HOLSTERED AT SOME OTHER PLACE?
A: IT WAS NOT AT THE READY.
Q: YOU KNOW THAT YOU WERE NOT EQUIPPED WITH ANY PROTECTIVE GEAR, CORRECT?
A: I WAS NOT.
Q: NOW, IF THAT GLOVE HAD BEEN THERE WHERE YOU SAY YOU FOUND IT, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PLACED THERE BY SOMEONE INVOLVED IN THE HOMICIDE; ISN'T THAT CONCLUSION COMPELLED?
A: I WOULD ASSUME THAT, YES.
Q: THAT WOULD BE A VICIOUS KILLER OF SOME SORT, WOULD IT NOT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU HUNG AROUND FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES WITH NO BACK-UP AND NO VEST DOING SOMETHING; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: NO, IT ISN'T.
Q: HAD ANYONE, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, SEEN THAT GLOVE THERE BEFORE YOUR ARRIVAL?
A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WOULD YOU THINK IT IMPORTANT THAT IF THE GLOVE WERE IN THAT LOCATION, THE LIKELIHOOD WAS THAT SOMEONE HAD PLACED IT THERE WHO HAD BEEN AT BUNDY?
A: YES.
Q: AND THAT SOMEONE, IF IT WERE A HUMAN BEING, WOULD HAVE TO HAVE GOTTEN TO THE SPOT OR NEAR IT AND GOTTEN AWAY, TRUE?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU EXAMINE THE SHRUBBERY TO SEE IF ANYONE HAD COME OVER THAT FENCE THAT MIGHT HAVE CRASHED THE WALL OR DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A: THAT WAS PART OF THE PERIOD THAT I SPENT BACK THERE LOOKING FOR THOSE TYPE OF ITEMS, YES.
Q: DID YOU NOT SATISFY YOURSELF THAT THERE WAS NO DAMAGE TO TWIG OR LEAF THAT WOULD HAVE PERMITTED AN ADULT TO COME OVER THAT FENCE AT OR NEAR THAT SPOT?
A: IT WAS PRETTY OVERGROWN. IT WOULD BE HARD TO TELL WHAT TRANSPIRED THERE.
Q: DID IT NOT SEEM LIKELY THAT WHOEVER PLACED THAT GLOVE THERE, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, HAD WALKED BACK OVER THE ALLEY OVER THE LEAVES?
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS OR DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: I'M SORRY, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, OVER THE LEAVES?
A: YES.
Q: AND THEIR TRACKS MIGHT STILL HAVE BEEN THERE WHEN YOU MADE THAT DISCOVERY, CORRECT?
A: I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING, BUT THEY COULD HAVE BEEN.
Q: AND YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN THE DETECTIVE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE FENCE AND SHOWN THE FLASHLIGHT THROUGH IT TO POINT OUT THE GLOVE, IF YOU HAD CHOSEN, COULD YOU NOT?
A: NO. I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT....
Q: DID YOU THINK THAT WHOEVER HAD DROPPED THAT GLOVE MIGHT HAVE LEFT FOOTPRINTS?
A: I DID NOT SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT, NO.
Q: FOOTPRINTS THAT WERE LATENT, NOT DISCERNIBLE?
DID YOU THINK THAT THERE MIGHT BE FOOTPRINTS THERE THAT A CRIMINALIST COULD FIND THAT MIGHT SHED LIGHT ON HOW THE GLOVE GOT THERE...?
A NOT AT THAT POINT, NO.
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: YOU DID NOT?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU THEN CAUSE EIGHTEEN PAIRS OF FEET TO TRAMPLE THAT AREA BEFORE ANY CRIMINALIST COULD GET TO IT?
A: EIGHTEEN PAIRS OF FEET?
Q: EIGHTEEN PAIRS OF FEET. TWO FUHRMAN, FOUR FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS, FOUR FUHRMAN AND VANNATTER, FOUR FUHRMAN AND LANGE AND FOUR FUHRMAN AND ROKAHR?
DID YOU DO THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, CAN YOU TELL US WHY, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH KATO KAELIN IN HIS ROOM, YOU ASKED HIM WHERE YOU COULD FIND THE KEYS TO THE BRONCO?
A: I NEVER ASKED HIM THAT.
Q: YOU ARE QUITE SURE?
A: I'M ABSOLUTELY SURE....
COURT ADJOURNED FOR THE DAY.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 14, 1995
9:42 A.M.
THE COURT: ...YOU MAY RESUME WITH YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
MR. BAILEY: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. BAILEY:
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO REVIEW WITH YOU THE STEPS YOU HAVE TAKEN TO PREPARE YOURSELF FOR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE.
WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME FOLLOWING THE PRELIMINARY HEARING THAT YOU MET WITH ONE OF THE PROSECUTORS, THOSE AT THE TABLE AND THOSE NOT AT THE TABLE, THAT YOU KNOW TO BE CONNECTED WITH THIS CASE, TO DISCUSS THE CASE AND/OR YOUR TESTIMONY?
A: ARE YOU SAYING POST-PRELIM, SIR?
Q: POST-PRELIMINARY HEARING.
A: PROBABLY WITHIN THE LAST MONTH, MONTH AND A HALF.
Q: DO I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO CONTACT BETWEEN YOU AND ANY OF THE PROSECUTORS IN THIS CASE UP UNTIL 1995?
A: WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THIS TESTIMONY, NO.
Q: ABOUT THIS CASE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? YOU ARE VERY MUCH A PART OF THIS CASE, AREN'T YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YEAH. AND YOU CAUSED THAT BY FINDING AN IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU KNEW FULL WELL THAT ONCE YOU CAME UP WITH A PIECE OF EVIDENCE OF THAT SORT THERE WASN'T ANYBODY THAT COULD GET YOU OUT OF THIS CASE BECAUSE YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL WITNESS, RIGHT?
DID YOU KNOW THAT...?
A: SIR, THE WAY YOU PHRASED THAT, "GET ME OUT OF THIS CASE"? I WASN'T TRYING TO GET OUT OF THIS CASE.
Q: SOMEBODY WAS TRYING TO GET YOU OUT. YOU TOLD US THAT IN SOME DETAIL YESTERDAY. YOU WERE OUT YOU THOUGHT?
A: OH, YOU MEAN THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CASE?
Q: YEAH.
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE OFF THE CASE AS A DETECTIVE.
WHEN YOU STOOD FOR AN HOUR AT THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE THROUGH, DIDN'T YOU?
A: I'M STILL A DETECTIVE, SIR, BUT AS FAR AS BEING THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR, YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE OFF THE CASE? ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
BUT WHEN YOU TURNED OUT TO FIND THIS GLOVE OVER AT ROCKINGHAM, YOU KNEW THAT YOU WOULD BE ON THE CASE AS LONG AS IT LASTED, DIDN'T YOU?
A: NO....
Q: DID YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD BE AN ESSENTIAL WITNESS IF YOU WERE THE FIRST TO FIND AN IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE?
A: WELL, I COULDN'T MAKE THAT DETERMINATION AT THAT TIME, SIR. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE IMPLICATION OF THE GLOVE WAS....
Q: DID YOU TELL US YESTERDAY THAT WHEN YOU SPOTTED THIS GLOVE, AS YOU CLAIM, THAT YOU RECOGNIZED IT AS ONE THAT LOOKED SIMILAR TO THE ONE ON BUNDY?
A: YES.
Q: AND THAT YOU KNEW THAT THE ONE ON BUNDY, I BELIEVE YOU SAID, WAS A LEFT-HANDED GLOVE OR BELIEVED IT TO BE, DID YOU NOT?
A: NO.
Q: DID NOT? YOU NOTICED THAT THIS APPEARED TO BE A RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE?
A: YES.
Q: AND THE REASON THAT YOU HAD THREE DETECTIVES IN THREE SEPARATE TRIPS TRAMPLE BACK ALONG THAT PATH WAS BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO POINT OUT TO THEM THE FACT THAT THIS GLOVE LOOKED LIKE A MATCH FOR THE ONE THEY HAD SEEN OVER AT THE CRIME SCENE ON BUNDY; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
A: NOT ENTIRELY. I JUST WANTED TO SHOW THEM THE EVIDENCE THAT I THOUGHT I FOUND.
Q: DIDN'T YOU SAY TO THEM, "IN MY VIEW THIS LOOKS SIMILAR," OR WORDS TO THAT EFFECT?
A: I BELIEVE I SAID THAT TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE I WENT INTO THAT DETAIL WITH THE OTHER TWO DETECTIVES, NO.
Q: DID YOU SAY ANYTHING WHEN YOU TOOK MR. VANNATTER BACK THERE? ANYTHING AT ALL?
A: I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID. I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TALKED TO VANNATTER AND LANGE. THEY JOINED ME AND I TOOK THEM BACK THE PATH.
Q: I DIDN'T ASK YOU THAT, SIR.
WHAT I ASKED YOU WAS WHETHER OR NOT DURING THE TRIP YOU HAVE DESCRIBED, TRIP NO. 2, ACTUALLY NO. 3, IF YOU COUNT YOUR OWN, DID DETECTIVE PHILIP VANNATTER, THE BOSS IN THIS CASE, DID YOU SHARE WITH HIM YOUR OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE GLOVE OR DID YOU JUST REMAIN SILENT?
A: I COULD HAVE SHARED THOSE OBSERVATIONS, YES. I DON'T RECALL SPECIFICALLY.
Q: YOU RECALL PHILLIPS BUT YOU DON'T RECALL DETECTIVE VANNATTER; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: INITIALLY I JUST REMEMBER TALKING TO PHILLIPS.
Q: LET'S GO TO DETECTIVE LANGE.
YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BRING THE THIRD MEMBER OF THE FOUR-MAN TEAM BACK TO LOOK, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
AND DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE LANGE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE RELEVANCE OF THAT GLOVE TO YOUR INVESTIGATION?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE I TALKED ABOUT RELEVANCE.
Q: WELL, WITHOUT USING THE WORD "RELEVANCE," JUST POLICE TALK, DID YOU SAY "THIS LOOKS IMPORTANT, TOM"?
A: NO.
Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY?
A: I SAID, "IT LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE SIMILAR TO THE ONE ON BUNDY."
Q: YOU HAVE TOLD US A NUMBER OF TIMES THAT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU NOTICED ABOUT THE GLOVE WAS THAT IT WAS MOIST AND STICKY, CORRECT?
A: YES, YES.
Q: AND DID YOU POINT THAT OUT TO
DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THAT NOT ONLY DID IT LOOK LIKE THE GLOVE FROM BUNDY, BUT THAT IT APPEARED TO HAVE A SUBSTANCE ON IT MAKING IT STICKY WHICH COULD WELL HAVE BEEN BLOOD?
A: I'M NOT SURE IF I DID OR IF I DIDN'T.
Q: BUT IT HAD BEEN THROUGH YOUR MIND, HADN'T IT?
A: YES.
Q: AND THE STICKY PART I TAKE IT YOU OBSERVED WHEN YOU TOOK THAT LITTLE TINY FLASHLIGHT OF YOURS AND SHINED IT ON THE GLOVE AND SAW SOMETHING OF A SHINY NATURE, AS OPPOSED TO A CAKED OR DRY SURFACE?
A: IT APPEARED THAT IT HAD SOMEWHAT OF A GLEAN OR A GLISTEN TO IT.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, MY QUESTION IS DID YOU BRING THAT TO THE ATTENTION OF DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?
A: I COULD HAVE.
Q: DID YOU BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF DETECTIVE LANGE?
A: I COULD HAVE.
Q: DID YOU BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
A: I COULD HAVE.
Q: YOU DON'T HAVE A MEMORY OF ANY OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS AS WE SIT HERE?
A: I DON'T HAVE A MEMORY OF A SPECIFIC COMMENT THAT I MADE TO ANY OF THOSE DETECTIVES WHEN WE WERE STANDING BY THE GLOVE.
Q: WERE YOU MORE INTERESTED IN SHOWING EACH DETECTIVE INDIVIDUALLY THE GLOVE OR MORE INTERESTED IN TRAMPLING UP THE PATHWAY?
A: WELL, OBVIOUSLY I WAS INTERESTED IN SHOWING EACH DETECTIVE SEPARATELY AND GET A SEPARATE POINT OF VIEW OF WHAT THEY WERE VIEWING, AS I DID.
Q: IS IT YOUR PRACTICE, WHEN SOMETHING IS DISCOVERED, TO PROHIBIT DETECTIVES, EXCEPT ONE AT A TIME, TO SEE YOUR DISCOVERY? IS THAT THE WAY YOU USUALLY OPERATE?
A: AT A CRIME SCENE YOU WOULD WANT TO BRING IN AS FEW PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE INTO AN AREA.
Q: AS FEW PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. EIGHTEEN SETS OF FEET IS A FEW PEOPLE?
A: WELL, IF WE DID IT ALL AT THE SAME TIME IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EVEN WORSE.
Q: IT WOULD?
A: YES.
Q: WOULDN'T YOU THINK THE FIRST FOUR TRIPS WOULD BE ENOUGH TO BLOT OUT ANY FOOTPRINTS OF THE PERPETRATOR, IF ANY THERE WERE?
A: I DIDN'T SEE EVIDENCE OF ANY FOOTPRINTS....
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW WHAT YOU CLAIM WAS A BROWN OBJECT LAYING ON THE GROUND, AS YOU APPROACHED IT AND YOU NOTICED THAT IT WAS A GLOVE, PERHAPS A MATCH OF THE ONE YOU HAD SEEN AT BUNDY, DID YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SHOULD NEXT DO?
A: YES.
Q: DID IT -- DID YOU THEN EXAMINE, BY THE WAY, THE SHRUBBERY OVER THE CHAINLINK FENCE WHERE SOMEONE COULD CONCEIVABLY HAVE CLIMBED OVER?
A: I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T FOCUS MY ATTENTION TO THE SHRUBBERY AT THAT TIME, NO.
Q: DID YOU INSPECT IT TO SEE WHETHER IT WAS DAMAGED IN ANY WAY CONSISTENT WITH INTRUSION?
A: THAT WHOLE AREA WAS OVERGROWN AND DIRTY. THAT WOULD BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO MAKE THAT CONCLUSION.
Q: DID YOU LOOK FOR BROKEN TWIGS OR LEAVES THAT WERE DAMAGED IN THE SHRUBBERY ABOVE THE CHAINLINK FENCE AT THE SITUS WHERE THE GLOVE WAS SEEN?
A: I DID NOT LOOK, BUT I DID NOT SEE ANY OF THAT.
Q: SO YOU DIDN'T HAVE AT THAT POINT ANY INTEREST IN WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE HAD DROPPED THE GLOVE COMING OVER THE FENCE?
A: MY INTEREST AT THAT POINT WAS WHO LEFT THE GLOVE AND WHAT CONDITION THEY WERE IN.
Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S ANALYZE THAT.
YOU SAID "WHAT CONDITION THEY WERE IN." WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A: WELL, THERE APPEARED TO BE SOMETHING ON THE GLOVE THAT COULD BE BLOOD.
Q: THAT'S RIGHT. WHICH COULD WELL HAVE GOTTEN THERE IF THE KILLER HAD WORN IT WHILE SLAUGHTERING NICOLE BROWN AND RONALD GOLDMAN, CORRECT?
A: POSSIBLY.
Q: WELL, DID YOU THINK OF THAT,
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: I THOUGHT OF A LOT OF THINGS AT THAT TIME.
Q: DID YOU THINK OF THAT?
A: THAT ALONG WITH OTHERS.
Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET'S TAKE THEM ONE AT A TIME.
YOU CONSIDERED THAT THIS GLOVE COULD
HAVE BEEN USED IN THOSE SLAYINGS AND THAT WAS OF SIGNIFICANCE, CORRECT?
A: COULD HAVE, YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU DECIDE TO INQUIRE FURTHER AS A DETECTIVE TO TRY TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE AS TO WHAT IT WAS AND HOW IT GOT THERE?
A: AT THAT POINT I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR A PERSON THAT LEFT IT.
Q: OKAY. NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PERSON THAT LEFT IT.
I'M SURE THAT AS YOU STOOD THERE LOOKING AT AN INSTRUMENTALITY OF A BRUTAL MURDER WHOSE SCENE YOU HAD JUST VISITED A SHORT TIME BEFORE YOU BEGAN TO THINK ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE PERSON THAT MIGHT HAVE HAD CONTROL AND CUSTODY OF THAT GLOVE, CORRECT?
A: NO.
Q: YOU DIDN'T?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, DID YOU THINK A VICTIM, SOME VICTIM YOU HADN'T DISCOVERED, MIGHT HAVE TAKEN A GLOVE FROM THE SCENE OF THE CRIME AND DEPOSITED IT ON O.J. SIMPSON'S PROPERTY?
A: SIR, I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING AT THAT POINT.
Q: DID YOU THINK THAT?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU THINK THAT POSSIBLY SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN INVOLVED AS A KILLER MIGHT HAVE DEPOSITED THAT GLOVE WITTINGLY OR UNWITTINGLY ON MR. SIMPSON'S PROPERTY?
A: I DID NOT THINK OF ANY OF THESE THINGS AT THAT TIME....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHAT THOUGHTS WERE YOU HAVING ABOUT YOUR SAFETY WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING AT WHAT YOU THOUGHT MIGHT HAVE BEEN DROPPED BY A KILLER?
A: AT THAT TIME I WAS THINKING THAT WHO IS WATCHING ME AT THIS TIME.
Q: AHA. DID YOU HAVE ANY CONCERN AT ALL THAT YOU MIGHT BE ATTACKED?
A: POSSIBLY.
Q: YOU ARE A POLICE OFFICER STANDING THERE WITH HIS WEAPON STICKING OUT FOR ALL TO SEE, WEREN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: ON YOUR HIP?
A: YES.
Q: THAT WOULD REPRESENT IN YOUR VIEW SOME KIND OF THREAT TO SOMEBODY WITH BLOOD ON HIS HANDS, WOULDN'T IT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU HAD NO REASON TO THINK THAT WHOEVER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT GLOVE WAS WOUNDED, DID YOU?
A: YES, I DID.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD LEADING TO OR FROM THE GLOVE IN ANY DIRECTION, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, IF THEY WERE WOUNDED, DID YOU THINK THEY HAD BEEN TO A DOCTOR AND GOT FIXED UP?
A: I COULDN'T SPECULATE ON THAT, SIR.
Q: WELL, WHY DID YOU THINK THEY WERE WOUNDED? YOU TELL ME?
A: SOMEONE LEAVING THE SCENE AT BUNDY WAS BLEEDING FROM THE LEFT SIDE OF THEIR BODY.
Q: YOU ARE SURE OF THAT?
A: I'M NOT SURE, BUT AT THAT TIME THAT WAS A CONCLUSION THAT WE HAD MADE....
Q: NOW, COMING BACK, IF WE WILL, IF WE MAY, TO BUNDY, WAS IT NOT REALLY YOUR IDEA TO SCALE THE WALL AND GO INTO MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE, PREMISES?
A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER MADE A STATEMENT THAT WE SHOULD GO IN AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT AND I SAID, "WELL, I WILL GO OVER THE WALL."
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IN FACT, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU WENT TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND URGED UPON HIM THAT THIS WAS AN EMERGENCY SITUATION, THAT ACTION HAD TO BE TAKEN IMMEDIATELY, THAT THERE MIGHT BE VICTIMS BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE THE PREMISES, AND YOU FELT SOMETHING HAD TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW?
ISN'T THAT WHAT HAPPENED?
A: NO. THAT WAS A CONVERSATION BETWEEN VANNATTER, MYSELF, AND BOTH OF US EXPERIENCED THE SAME CONCERNS.
Q: DID YOU SAY TO HIM "IN MY VIEW THIS IS AN EMERGENCY AND WE NEED TO ACT NOW"?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU NOT SAY THAT TO HIM BEFORE HE MADE ANY SUCH STATEMENT TO YOU?
A: HE WAS MAKING SIMILAR STATEMENTS TO ME AT THE SAME TIME IN THIS CONVERSATION.
Q: AND DID YOU VOLUNTEER TO BE THE ONE THAT HURDLED THE WALL?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU REALIZE, WHEN YOU HURDLED THAT WALL, THAT THERE MIGHT SOME DAY BE A LEGAL CHALLENGE TO THE PROPRIETY OF YOUR ACTIONS?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU REALIZE, WHEN YOU HURDLED THE WALL, THAT YOU WERE INEXORABLY A PART OF THIS CASE FOR AS LONG AS IT MIGHT LAST?
A: I DON'T THINK I WAS THINKING ANY OF THOSE THINGS, SIR.
Q: IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO YOU?
A: NO....
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU WENT OVER THE WALL, AND LET THE OTHER OFFICERS IN, YOU PROCEEDED ULTIMATELY TO KATO KAELIN'S ROOM, CORRECT?
A: YES....
Q: NOW, WHEN YOU BEGAN TO TALK TO KAELIN, YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS?
A: NO.
Q: DO YOU REPRESENT THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS HIS CAR PARKED OUTSIDE THE ASHFORD GATE?
A: NO, I DID NOT KNOW THAT.
Q: DID YOU EVER QUESTION HIM ABOUT WHETHER HE HAD AN AUTOMOBILE NEARBY?
A: I DID NOT, NO.
Q: DID YOU VIEW HIM AS A SUSPECT?
A: HE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE SO MUCH A SUSPECT, BUT THEN AGAIN, I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HIS FUNCTION WAS AT THE HOUSE.
Q: DID YOU ASK HIM WHAT CLOTHES HE HAD WORN THAT NIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: DID HE SHOW YOU?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU INSPECT THEM LOOKING FOR SIGNS THAT MIGHT IN SOME WAY TIE HIM TO THE HOMICIDES?
A: I LOOKED AT HIS CLOTHES AND HIS SHOES, YES.
Q: OKAY.
YOU TURNED HIS SHOES OVER TO LOOK AT THE SOLES TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY BLOOD ON OR IN BETWEEN THE RIDGES OF THE SOLES, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE IN DOING THAT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY BLOOD ON THE SOLES....
Q: SO I TAKE IT NOW AT THIS POINT, HAVING BEEN TO THE BRONCO AND HURDLED THE WALL AND INTERROGATING KAELIN, YOU VIEWED YOURSELF AS A DETECTIVE VERY MUCH IN THE CASE?
A: WELL, I'M ALWAYS A DETECTIVE, YES.
Q: IN THE SIMPSON CASE?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: IS THAT YOUR PERCEPTION OF YOURSELF?
A: YES. I WAS ASKED TO ASSIST THOSE DETECTIVES, YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, MR. KAELIN TOLD YOU THAT THAT CAR NORMALLY WAS DRIVEN BY MR. SIMPSON, CORRECT?
A: YES. I BELIEVE HE SAID IT WAS O.J.'S VEHICLE.
Q: AND YOU ASKED WHETHER HE HAD DRIVEN IT THAT NIGHT?
A: I BELIEVE I DID, YES.
Q: AND MR. KAELIN RESPONDED HE THOUGHT SO, BUT HE WASN'T SURE?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: CORRECT?
A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.
Q: THEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE QUESTION OF -- ABOUT UNUSUAL OCCURRENCES, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THE WORD YOU USED IN SPEAKING WITH KATO WAS "UNUSUAL," WASN'T IT?
A: YES.
Q: AND NOW THAT HE FINALLY DID GET A CHANCE TO ANSWER, WHAT DID HE SAY?
A: HE SAID AT ABOUT 10:45 HE HEARD A CRASHING ON HIS WALL AND HE THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AN EARTHQUAKE. HIS PICTURE SHOOK. AND THEN HE CONTINUED TO SAY THAT HE WENT OUT TO INVESTIGATE IT AND HE SAW A LIMO AT THE GATE.
Q: WELL, HE NEVER SUGGESTED TO YOU THAT HE WENT BACK ALONG THE WALL BETWEEN THE WALL AND THE FENCE TO THE AREA OF THE NOISE, DID HE?
A: NO, SIR....
Q: DID YOU THEN AND THERE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, DECIDE ON YOUR OWN TO GO OUT AND INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THAT SOUND?
A: I DECIDED TO GO OUT AND TRY TO ORIENT MYSELF WITH THE PROPERTY AND SEE WHERE THAT SOUND COULD HAVE COME FROM, YES.
Q: DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOU WOULD GO TO THE PROBABLE SOURCE AS DESCRIBED BY MR. KAELIN BY RELATING IT TO AN AIR CONDITIONER THAT PLAINLY STUCK THROUGH THE WALL?
A: I THINK WHEN I WENT TO THE SOUTH BORDER AND I SAW THE PATH, I WALKED DOWN THE PATH AS A CONTINUATION OF DISCOVERING WHERE THAT SOUND OF THAT WALL WAS LOCATED.
Q: WE ARE STILL BACK IN KATO'S ROOM.
I'M ASKING WHETHER OR NOT BEFORE YOU EVER LEFT THAT ROOM YOU MADE A DECISION THAT YOU WOULD GO INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THE SOUND?
A: I BELIEVE WHEN I WALKED -- WHEN I WALKED HIM INTO THE HOUSE AND I WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE, WHEN I TOLD PHIL, "WHY DON'T YOU TALK TO THIS GUY AT THE BAR," I THINK I HAD DECIDED TO GO OUT AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THAT SOUND CAME FROM ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE WALL, YES.
Q: AM I TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAS A DECISION MADE WHILE WALKING?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU LEFT THE ROOM YOU HADN'T MADE THE DECISION?
A: I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN IT HAPPENED, BUT I WOULD -- TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION WOULD BE WHEN I WAS WALKING INTO THE HOUSE, YES.
Q: BY THE TIME THAT YOU GOT TO THE HOUSE YOU HAD MADE THE DECISION, CORRECT?
A: I DIDN'T REALLY -- I CAN'T REALLY RECOLLECT EXACTLY AT WHAT STEP I DID, BUT I WAS WALKING HIM IN, ASKED HIM TO SIT DOWN. AND AS I WALKED OUT, I WALKED OUT TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THAT SOUND WOULD HAVE COME FROM ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL. SO DURING THAT PERIOD BETWEEN -- BETWEEN KAELIN'S ROOM AND THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE OR TELLING VANNATTER IF HE WOULD TALK TO THE MAN AT THE BAR, BETWEEN THAT PERIOD I DID.
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IS IT NOT TRUE THAT AS YOU DECIDED TO WALK OUT TO THE SOURCE OF THE NOISE YOU DECIDED TO GO ALONE?
A: I WAS ALREADY ALONE, SIR.
Q: WELL, YOU WERE WITH KAELIN WHO COULD HAVE TAKEN YOU OUT THERE, I SUPPOSE, COULD HE NOT?
A: I'M SURE HE COULD HAVE.
Q: YOU WERE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, THE LEAD, WITH WHOM YOU NEVER DISCUSSED YOUR PLANS, CORRECT?
A: NO, I WASN'T WITH HIM. I YELLED TO HIM. HE WAS IN THE KITCHEN.
Q: YOU WERE IN THE SAME BUILDING WITH HIM, WERE YOU NOT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU WERE THE GENTLEMAN THAT HAD TO STAND AT DOROTHY AND BUNDY FOR AN HOUR FOR LACK OF INSTRUCTION, ARE YOU NOT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU DECIDED, WITHOUT CONFIDING IN ANYBODY, TO GO ALONE BEHIND THAT BUILDING, CORRECT?
A: CORRECT.
Q: DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT MR. KAELIN MIGHT BE ABLE TO ASSIST YOU IN POINTING OUT THE EXACT SOURCE OF THE NOISE AS HE RECONSTRUCTED IT?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: DID YOU THINK OF THAT?
A: NO....
Q: HAD YOU LEARNED BY THAT TIME THAT HE LIVED IN THAT BUNGALOW?
A: I THINK, YES, I CONCLUDED THAT.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WELL, WHY WOULD YOU INSTRUCT HIM TO SIT ON A BAR STOOL?
A: BECAUSE I WANTED HIM TO SIT THERE.
Q: WHY DID YOU WANT HIM TO SIT THERE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: SO DETECTIVE VANNATTER OR ANOTHER DETECTIVE COULD TALK TO HIM.
Q: THAT WOULD TAKE CARE OF TWO OF THEM, WOULDN'T IT?
A: TWO OF WHO...?
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT EVERYBODY HAS GOT TO BE SOMEPLACE?
A: I AGREE.
Q: AND THAT ONE PERSON CAN'T BE IN TWO PLACES?
A: AGREED.
Q: SO THAT IF YOU CAUSED TWO PEOPLE TO JOIN TOGETHER IN A CONVERSATION AT A SPECIFIC PLACE, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT THEY WILL BE AT ANY OTHER PLACE UNTIL THE CONVERSATION IS OVER?
A: I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, I WILL ASK YOU ONE MORE TIME.
DID YOU USE WORDS OF INSTRUCTION TO PHIL VANNATTER TELLING HIM, WITHOUT SUGGESTING ANY SUBJECT MATTER, GO TALK TO KAELIN?
A: NOT IN THAT MANNER, BUT YES, I DID.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
YOU HAD ALREADY FORMULATED A PLAN THAT YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK OUT BEHIND THE BUILDING IN THE DARKNESS FOR SOMETHING, CORRECT?
A: NO.
Q: YOU HAD NOT?
A: I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF THAT WAS ACCESSIBLE FROM THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.
Q: DIDN'T YOU TELL US THAT AS YOU WALKED FROM THE BUNGALOW TO THE HOUSE YOU HAD MADE A DECISION THAT YOU WOULD GO LOOK AT THE SOURCE OF THE NOISE?
A: I WASN'T EVEN --
Q: I'M SORRY, DID YOU SAY THAT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
WELL, THEN AT THE TIME YOU SAID, "PHIL, GO TALK TO MR. KAELIN," YOU WERE ON YOUR WAY, WEREN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DIDN'T HESITATE AT ALL? ONCE THAT UTTERANCE WAS OUT OF YOUR MOUTH YOU KEPT RIGHT ON MOVING?
A: YES.
Q: YOU SAW PHILLIPS ON THE TELEPHONE?
A: YES, I BELIEVE SO.
Q: AND DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE LANGE?
A: I DON'T RECALL IF I SAW HIM.
Q: WAS HE IN THE PROXIMITY OF ARNELLE SIMPSON APPARENTLY ENGAGED IN CONVERSATION OF SOME SORT?
A: HE COULD HAVE BEEN.
Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT IS FIVE PEOPLE IN THE HOUSE, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AFTER YOU LEAVE? ALL ENGAGED IN DOING SOMETHING, RIGHT?
A: YES....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, I WILL ASK YOU ONCE AGAIN: WAS IT NOT YOUR PURPOSE TO BE IN THE AREA ALONG THE SOUTH WALL ALONE?
A: NO, IT WASN'T.
Q: IT JUST WORKED OUT THAT WAY? IS THAT IT?
A: I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE SOUTH WALL WAS ACCESSIBLE.
Q: NO. IT JUST WORKED OUT THAT YOU LEFT THE HOUSE AND MADE YOUR INVESTIGATION FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES OR MORE ALONE?
A: THAT IS HOW IT WORKED OUT.
Q: THAT IS HOW IT WORKED OUT.
YOU NOW WALK BACK THE PATHWAY TOWARD WHAT YOU THINK WILL BE THE WALL WITH THE AIR CONDITIONER, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AT THAT POINT YOU ARE SOLELY EXPECTING TO INQUIRE INTO POSSIBLE SOURCES OF SOMETHING THAT THUMPED THE WALL AND MADE A PICTURE SHAKE?
A: THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY, YES....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, YOU THEN PROCEEDED DOWN A DARKENED AREA WHICH YOU NOW SAY HAD COBWEBS AT LEAST AT THE UPPER SECTION?
A: YES.
Q: WHEN YOU ORIGINALLY DESCRIBED THIS VENTURE, YOU DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE COBWEBS BEING ONLY AT THE UPPER PART OF THE WALL, DID YOU?
A: I THINK THAT IS THE ONLY PLACE I FELT THEM, SO I WOULDN'T HAVE GONE INTO ANYTHING LOWER.
Q: THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION.
MY QUESTION WAS, WHEN YOU EARLIER DESCRIBED THIS IN JULY, YOU DIDN'T MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT THE LOCATION OF THE COBWEBS, OTHER THAN BEING EAST OF THE POINT WHERE THE GLOVE WAS, CORRECT?
A: I THINK THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WOULD YOU REVIEW WITH US, PLEASE, WHAT YOU DID FOR THE FIFTEEN MINUTES -- NOW SEVEN AFTER 11:00 -- FOR THE FIFTEEN MINUTES THAT YOU STAYED OUT THERE ALONE AFTER YOUR DISCOVERY AND BEFORE YOU SOUGHT TO BRING IT TO THE ATTENTION OF ANYONE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
I'M SURE A LOT HAPPENED IN FIFTEEN MINUTES AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO DESCRIBE EVERY DETAIL, IF YOU CAN.
A: I WALKED SLOWLY DOWN THE PATHWAY GOING EAST TO THAT POTTING OR THAT LARGE PLANT AREA THAT IS PROBABLY 25-FOOT SQUARE.
Q: HOW LONG DID THAT TAKE?
A: THAT WAS PROBABLY SEVERAL MINUTES BACK THERE BECAUSE IT IS VERY OVERGROWN. I TRIED TO SEE FROM THE EAST PROPERTY, IF THERE WAS A FENCE. IT WAS VERY OVERGROWN. I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS BUSHES OR IVY. I LOOKED IN THAT AREA, LOOKED FOR ANY EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING THAT HAD BEEN DROPPED OR ANY BLOOD EVIDENCE.
Q: WHERE DID YOU LOOK?
A: ON THE GROUND, ON THE WALLS, THE PLANTS. I RETURNED BACK WESTBOUND ON THE PATH.
Q: WAIT JUST A MINUTE. HOW MUCH OF YOUR FIFTEEN MINUTES WAS SPENT BACK IN THE SMALL YARD THAT YOU VIEWED AS A SITUS FOR POTTING PLANTS?
A: SEVERAL MINUTES, PROBABLY MORE THAN FIVE.
Q: SEVERAL MOMENTS HAS NO REAL DEFINITIVE MEANING. COULD YOU PLEASE USE MINUTES OR SECONDS AND MINUTES TO DESCRIBE EACH STEP THAT YOU TOOK.
HOW MANY MINUTES WERE YOU PRESENT ON THE FAR SIDE OR EAST SIDE BETWEEN THE ALLEYWAY BETWEEN THE FENCE AND THE BUILDING?
A: TALKING ABOUT THE PATHWAY, SIR?
Q: YOU HAVE WALKED HOW MANY FEET FROM THE GLOVE TO THE END OF THE BUILDING?
A: 75.
Q: WELL, IF THE NORMAL WALKING RATE IS 350 FEET A MINUTE, WHAT WOULD YOU THINK YOUR RATE WAS AT THAT TIME THAT IT TOOK YOU SEVERAL MINUTES TO GO 75 FEET?
A: I DIDN'T TESTIFY TO THAT, SIR.
Q: I THINK YOU JUST SAID IT TOOK SEVERAL MINUTES TO GET TO THE END OF THE BUILDING A FEW MOMENTS AGO, DID YOU NOT?
A: NO, I DID NOT.
Q: TELL ME NOW HOW LONG DID IT TAKE?
A: I JUST WALKED TO THE END OF THE BUILDING AND I SPENT SEVERAL MINUTES BACK IN THAT AREA.
Q: OKAY.
A: AT THE END OF THE BUNGALOWS.
Q: ONCE AGAIN, WOULD YOU TRY TO HELP US AVOID THE USE OF THE WORD "SEVERAL" WHICH CAN MEAN SEVERAL THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
HOW MANY MINUTES WAS IT FROM THE DEPARTURE OF THE GLOVE FROM THE TIME YOU LEFT THE SMALL YARD AT THE BACK OF THE BUILDING?
A: FIVE MINUTES.
Q: YOU SPENT FIVE MINUTE THERE LOOKING AROUND WITH YOUR FLASHLIGHT?
A: APPROXIMATELY.
Q: YOU LOOKED ON THE WALL, THE GROUND, YOU LOOKED FOR BLOOD AND WHAT ELSE?
A: ANYTHING THAT LOOKED OUT OF PLACE OR SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T BELONG.
Q: WELL, IF THE GLOVE WAS DROPPED BY THE KILLER, WHY WERE YOU BACK AT THE WALL LOOKING FOR BLOOD?
A: FIRST I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT HAVE COLLAPSED OR LEFT THE GLOVE, BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING OBVIOUS IN THAT AREA.
Q: OKAY.
FIVE MINUTES IS ABOUT WHAT IT TOOK TO INVESTIGATE THAT LITTLE YARD?
A: APPROXIMATELY.
Q: OKAY. WHAT DID YOU NEXT DO?
A: WALKED BACK WESTBOUND ON THE PATH.
Q: TO WHERE?
A: TO THE AIR CONDITIONER. I LOOKED AROUND THAT AREA.
Q: HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND LOOKING AROUND THE AREA OF THE AIR CONDITIONER?
A: I WOULD SAY A COUPLE MINUTES, BUT I HAD TO BRING IT DOWN TO MINUTES, TWO OR THREE MINUTES.
Q: TWO OR THREE MINUTES. TELL US WHAT YOU DID DURING THAT PERIOD TO INSPECT THE AIR CONDITIONER AND IT SURROUNDINGS? WHAT DID YOU LOOK AT?
A: I LOOKED AT THE AIR CONDITIONER TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANYTHING DISTURBED, ANY BLOOD, ANYTHING LEFT THERE.
I SHINED MY LIGHT ON THE BLUE PAPER OBJECT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE. I LOOKED IN THAT AREA. I STEPPED PAST THAT AREA AND THEN WENT AROUND WHERE THE INDENTATION WAS FARTHER WEST.
Q: UH-HUH. AND HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND THERE?
A: PROBABLY MORE TIME THAN I DID BACK IN THE AREA WITH --
Q: IN MINUTES?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: IN MINUTES, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: I'M TRYING TO EXPLAIN, SIR. PROBABLY MORE IN THAT AREA THAN IN THE POTTING AREA, SO I WOULD PROBABLY SAY IN EXCESS OF FIVE MINUTES, MAYBE AS MANY AS SEVEN OR EIGHT MINUTES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
WHAT DID YOU DO BETWEEN FIVE AND SEVEN MINUTES BY THE INDENTATION AREA, AS YOU CALL IT, TO COMPLETE YOUR INVESTIGATION?
A: WELL, I BELIEVE THERE IS AN ELECTRICAL BOX THERE AND THERE SEEMS TO BE -- I THINK THERE IS AN ENTRY TO THE UNDERNEATH OF THE HOUSE. I OPENED THAT. I TRIED TO LOOK IN THERE. IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT WITH MY FLASHLIGHT. IT WASN'T VERY POWERFUL.
I DECIDED NOT TO GO ANY FURTHER. I DIDN'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING AT THE ENTRY. THE VOLTAGE BOX, I LOOKED IN THAT. I LOOKED INTO THAT AREA FOR ANY TYPE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND I SAW NONE, SO I RETURNED TO THE HOUSE.
Q: WHY WERE YOU LOOKING IN THE VOLTAGE BOX AT THAT POINT?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I WAS LOOKING FOR ANY AREA THAT COULD HAVE HOUSED SOMETHING OR SOMEBODY.
Q: THE VOLTAGE BOX, YOU THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE SOMEBODY IN IT?
A: IT WAS A VERY LARGE VOLTAGE BOX. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS --
Q: THAT IS WHY YOU OPENED IT?
A. YES
Q: NOBODY THERE?
A: NO....
Q: OKAY.
BUT YOU DID SPEND, BY YOUR OWN ESTIMATE, FIFTEEN MINUTES LOOKING AROUND BEFORE NOTIFYING YOUR SUPERIORS OF WHAT COULD BE A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, TRUE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, IT IS APPARENT, FROM THE WAY YOU HAVE DESCRIBED YOUR ACTIONS BACK THERE, THAT YOU HAD NOT THE SLIGHTEST CONCERN FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY; IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT IT, DID YOU?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT?
A: I'M CAPABLE OF PROTECTING MYSELF. ONCE I WAS COMMITTED I REALLY HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO GO FORWARD.
Q: YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE OPTION, HAVING DISCOVERED WHAT COULD WELL HAVE BEEN THE DEPOSIT, WITTINGLY OR OTHERWISE, OF A DANGEROUS KILLER, TO GO BACK AND GET SOME HELP?
THAT OPTION WASN'T THERE?
A: THE OPTION WAS THERE.
Q: WHY DID YOU DECIDE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO GO GET ONE OF THE GUNS THAT WAS IN THE HOUSE TO ACCOMPANY YOU?
A: I DON'T THINK IT WAS A NEED. I THINK IT WAS A JUDGMENT CALL AT THAT TIME.
Q: IT WAS A JUDGMENT CALL, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, BASED ON THE FACT THAT YOU WELL KNEW THERE WAS NO CAUSE FOR CONCERN; ISN'T THAT SO?
A: NO, THAT IS NOT SO.
Q: DO YOU ORDINARILY CONDUCT INVESTIGATIONS OF WHAT COULD BE A DANGEROUS NATURE IN THIS FASHION?
A: SOMETIMES.
Q: AND YOU DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE ASSISTANCE OF YOUR MORE EXPERIENCED COLLEAGUES WHEN THEY ARE AVAILABLE, CORRECT?
A: IF THEY ARE IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE, OF COURSE I WOULD.
Q: WELL, IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE. WOULD YOU SAY WITHIN THIRTY SECONDS' TIME SATISFIES YOUR DEFINITION OF IMMEDIACY?
A: AT THAT TIME, NO.
Q: COULD YOU NOT HAVE GONE FROM THAT GLOVE TO THE FRONT DOOR OR THE KITCHEN IN LESS THAN A MINUTE, VERY, VERY EASILY THAT NIGHT, IF YOU HAD CHOSEN TO DO SO?
A: YES, I COULD HAVE.
Q: OKAY.
THE DECISION NOT TO DO SO WAS YOURS, WAS IT NOT?
A: YES, IT WAS.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE DURING THAT 15-MINUTE PERIOD THAT YOU HAVE NOT YET DESCRIBED TO US?
A: NO.
Q: IN THE STUDIES OF BLOOD THAT YOU HAD IN THE SCHOOL WHERE YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE ROUND DROPS, DID YOU LEARN ANY OF THE OTHER PROPERTIES OF BLOOD THAT MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO A DETECTIVE, PARTICULARLY ONE IN HOMICIDE CASES?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE THE SPECIFICS YOU ARE ASKING. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ASKING, SIR.
Q: WHAT HAPPENS TO BLOOD WHEN IT LEAVES THE BODY AND IS ON SOME SURFACE AND IS EXPOSED TO AIR?
A: I WOULD ASSUME THAT IT WOULD COAGULATE.
Q: AND THEN?
A: DRY.
Q: THE MOISTURE THAT IS PART OF THE BLOOD EVAPORATES IN TIME, DOES IT NOT?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU LEARN, IF ANYTHING, ABOUT THE RATE AT WHICH BLOOD DRIES AT SIXTY DEGREES FAHRENHEIT, AS IT WAS THAT NIGHT, BY YOUR OWN STATEMENT?
A: I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING IN THAT AREA.
Q: DID YOU EVER LEARN ANY PARAMETERS OR FACTS ABOUT THE DRYING OF BLOOD?
A: NOT THAT I RECALL, NO.
Q: WOULD YOU NOT AGREE, FROM YOUR OWN HUMAN EXPERIENCE, QUITE APART FROM WHAT YOU LEARNED IN DETECTIVE SCHOOL, THAT THE LONGER THE BLOOD IS EXPOSED, THE MORE LIKELY IT IS THAT IT WILL BE DRIED?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THE GLOVE, DID YOU ASSOCIATE IT WITH THE NOISE THAT KATO HAD HEARD OR SAID THAT HE HEARD AT 10:45 P.M.?
A: I BELIEVE WITH THE LOCATION OF THE AIR CONDITIONER, I THOUGHT YES.
Q: DID YOU THINK THAT THAT NOISE MIGHT SOMEHOW HAVE BEEN TIED IN WITH THE EVENT THAT CAUSED THAT GLOVE TO BE THERE?
A: I THOUGHT IT COULD HAVE BEEN, YES.
Q: PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS BACK THERE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE AREA AND BUMPED INTO THE WALL AND DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A: THAT WOULD BE ONE CONCLUSION, YES.
Q: WELL, DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
A: I BELIEVE THAT SOMEONE OBVIOUSLY HAD LEFT IT THERE.
Q: DID YOU THINK THAT THAT MIGHT BE A PERSON BUMPING THE WALL WHO DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO THAT YOU THEN HAD A POSSIBLE TIME PIN OF THE EVENT ITSELF? IF THE NOISE AND THE DEPOSIT OF THE GLOVE OCCURRED TOGETHER, THEN THIS HAD BEEN THERE SINCE QUARTER OF 11:00, HADN'T IT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU WERE THERE AT 6:15, WEREN'T YOU?
A: APPROXIMATELY, YES.
Q: THAT IS SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS, ISN'T IT?
A: YES.
Q: THAT IS ENOUGH FOR BLOOD TO DRY, ISN'T IT?
A: UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, YES, I'M SURE IT WOULD BE.
Q: UNLESS IT IS ENCASED IN PLASTIC OR RUBBER AND EVAPORATION IS STOPPED, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?
A: NO.
Q: DIDN'T IT SEEM STRANGE TO YOU THAT AFTER SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS THAT GLOVE STILL SHOWED MOIST STICKY BLOOD, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: NO. I KNEW NOTHING AT THAT TIME WHEN IT WAS DEPOSITED OR LEFT THERE.
Q: YOU DIDN'T?
A: NO....
Q: WHEN DID YOU FIND THE GLOVE?
A: THE GLOVE ON ROCKINGHAM?
Q: YES.
A: AT APPROXIMATELY SOMETIME BETWEEN 6:05, 6:10, 6:15....
Q: OKAY.
NOW, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT AT NO TIME THAT NIGHT DID YOU INQUIRE AS TO THE WHEREABOUTS OF MR. SIMPSON DURING THE PRECEDING SIX OR EIGHT HOURS?
A: WELL, I HAD HEARD, BUT I DIDN'T DO MUCH INQUIRING, NO.
Q: YOU NEVER INQUIRED OF KATO?
A: I'M SORRY?
Q: YOU NEVER INQUIRED OF KATO?
A: THAT MORNING OR THAT AFTERNOON?
Q: NO, THAT MORNING?
A: I NEVER TALKED TO MR. KAELIN EVER AGAIN.
Q: NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE IN HIS BUNGALOW QUESTIONING HIM? YOU NEVER PUT THE QUESTION TO HIM ABOUT MR. SIMPSON?
A: I'M SORRY, I DON'T UNDERSTAND. MR. SIMPSON WHAT?
Q: DID YOU EVER ASK KATO IF HE KNEW WHERE MR. SIMPSON HAD BEEN THE PRIOR EVENING?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHEN HE TOLD YOU ABOUT SEEING A LIMO, DID YOU INFER OR INQUIRE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THAT WAS TO TAKE MR. SIMPSON SOMEWHERE?
A: NO, I DIDN'T.
Q: DID YOU LEARN AT SOME POINT THAT MR. PHILLIPS, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, HAD REACHED HIM BY TELEPHONE IN CHICAGO?
A: YES, LATER IN THE MORNING I DID.
Q: WHEN WAS THAT?
A: LATER IN THE MORNING, MAYBE AN HOUR LATER, A HALF HOUR.
Q: DID YOU LEARN FROM OTHER WITNESSES IN THE COURSE OF THE DAY THAT HE HAD LEFT THE PROPERTY AT AROUND 11:00 TO GO TO THE AIRPORT?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE I HEARD A TIMELINE THAT DAY ABOUT WHEN HE LEFT.
DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY AND DETECTIVE LANGE WAS ON BUNDY, SO I DIDN'T TALK TO ANYONE EXCEPT FOR PHILLIPS.
HE MIGHT HAVE MENTIONED WHEN HIS FLIGHT LEFT, BUT THAT IS ABOUT IT....
Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, A PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS CASE TOOK PLACE EARLY IN JULY, DID IT NOT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU TESTIFIED BOTH ON JULY 5TH AND JULY 6TH, IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS BY MS. CLARK AND DEAN UELMEN FOR THE DEFENSE?
A: YES.
Q: SEVERAL DIRECT AND SEVERAL CROSS-EXAMINATIONS.
DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WERE YOU TRYING AT THAT TIME, TO THE VERY BEST YOUR ABILITY, TO BE ACCURATE IN EACH OF YOUR VARIOUS UTTERANCES?
A: YES, I WAS.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, COULD YOU TURN, PLEASE, TO PAGE 41 OF THE TRANSCRIPT THAT HAS BEEN PLACED IN FRONT OF YOU.
A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q: I ASK YOU TO LOOK AT LINE 14.
YOU WERE ASKED BY MISS CLARK THE NATURE OF A CERTAIN CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHILE YOU WERE STILL WITHOUT THE PREMISES, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOUR ANSWER WAS:
"I TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER, I SAID 'WE GOT A REAL -- WE GOT AN EMERGENCY, WE GOT A PROBLEM -- WE GOT -- WE DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE PEOPLE INSIDE THAT ARE IN DANGER, DYING, BLEEDING TO DEATH. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. I DON'T CARE WHOSE HOUSE THIS IS. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. WE DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE A MURDER, SUICIDE, A KIDNAPPING, ANOTHER VICTIM,' AND PHIL AGREED AND WE TOOK OUR OPINIONS TO DETECTIVE LANGE AND PHILLIPS AND DISCUSSED THE POSSIBILITIES."
DO YOU RECALL THAT TESTIMONY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DOES THAT ACCURATELY DESCRIBE THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH YOU DETECTIVES BECAME CONCERNED OR AT LEAST EXPRESSED YOUR CONCERN ABOUT POSSIBLE VICTIMS INSIDE?
A: SOMEWHAT.
Q: SO THAT THIS IDEA WAS INITIATED BY DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN, WAS IT NOT?
A: NO. THIS WAS A CONVERSATION BETWEEN VANNATTER AND MYSELF AND THAT IS A COLLECTIVE CONVERSATION.
Q: THIS IS COLLECTIVE?
A: YES. THOSE ARE MY FEELINGS ABSENT OF THE CONVERSATION -- THE RECIPROCAL OF DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
Q: I SEE. WELL, NOW DO YOU SEE ANYTHING, BEGINNING AT LINE 15, ABOUT VANNATTER SPEAKING TO YOU?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
DO YOU SEE THAT MOST OF WHAT I HAVE JUST RECITED IS IN QUOTES AND THUS ATTRIBUTED BY THE COURT REPORTER TO YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF?
DO YOU NOTICE THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, IS IT NOT THE FACT THAT THE FIRST ONE TO SUGGEST AN EMERGENCY AND THE NEED TO DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW WAS YOU?
A: I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS ME THAT FIRST SUGGESTED IT. VANNATTER AND I WERE BOTH TALKING ABOUT IT. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT CAME DOWN EXACTLY TO THAT POINT.
Q: OKAY.
AFTER AUTHORITY HAD BEEN OBTAINED FROM THE NECESSARY BRASS -- I THINK COMMANDER BUSHEY WAS IT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: -- TO GO IN WITHOUT A WARRANT --
A: COMMANDER BUSHEY HAD NO SAY IN THAT, SIR.
Q: OH, HE DIDN'T?
A: NO.
Q: VANNATTER DIDN'T CHECK WITH ANYONE?
A: NO.
Q: HE MADE THE DECISION?
A: HE MADE THE DECISION....
Q: HOW WERE YOU ELECTED TO BE THE ONE TO GO OVER THE WALL?
A: PHIL MADE A STATEMENT THAT, "WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO IN. HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT?" AND I SAID, "WELL, I WILL GO OVER THE WALL."
Q: ALL RIGHT.
YOU VOLUNTEERED TO DO THAT IN RESPONSE TO HIS QUERY HOW CAN WE ACCOMPLISH IT, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
ON PAGE 46, LINE 15, WHEN YOU WERE WITH KATO KAELIN IN HIS ROOM, YOU SAY THAT YOU STAYED BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO MR. KAELIN WAS AND:
"I WASN'T SURE IF HE WAS EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. I STAYED WITH HIM AND ENGAGED HIM IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHO HE WAS AND WHAT HE WAS DOING THERE AND A FEW OTHER THINGS."
MY QUESTION IS, IS THAT ACCURATE?
A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.
Q: DID YOU DETERMINE THAT KATO KAELIN, FROM TALKING TO HIM, WAS A PROPER PERSON TO BE IN THAT HOUSE AT THAT TIME?
A: I DON'T -- I NEVER SAW ANY IDENTIFICATION AS FAR AS AN ADDRESS. HE MIGHT HAVE SAID HE LIVES THERE OR HE STAYS THERE.
Q: OKAY.
WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 48, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q: IT IS THE LATTER PART OF A LONG ANSWER WHICH GOES ALMOST TWO FULL PAGES.
I'M INTERESTED IN ONLY A FEW LINES. I WILL READ THE WHOLE QUESTION AND ANSWER IF YOU PREFER.
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DO THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
THE ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS:
"DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM," MEANING KATO KAELIN, "AT THAT TIME," 47 LINE 12.
"ANSWER: YES. SIMULTANEOUS WITH -- I WAS WALKING -- I WALKED TO THE BATHROOM WHICH I COULDN'T SEE INTO FROM WHERE I WAS STANDING AT THE DOORWAY. I WALKED IN JUST TO MAKE SURE NOBODY WAS IN THERE AND I OPENED UP THE CLOSETS TO MAKE SURE NO ONE WAS STANDING IN THE CLOSETS. I ENGAGED HIM IN CONVERSATION WHILE I WAS DOING THAT. I NOTICED A PILE OF CLOTHES TO THE -- IF YOU WERE LYING IN THE BED, IT WOULD BE THE RIGHT SIDE, NEXT TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BED AND A PAIR OF SHOES. I ASKED HIM IF THOSE WERE THE CLOTHES HE WORE AND HE SAID 'LAST NIGHT' AND HE SAID 'YES' AND I SAID, 'MIND IF I LOOK AT THEM?' HE SAID, 'NO.' I PICKED UP THE SHOES. I LOOKED AT THE SOLES. I PICKED UP THE CLOTHES AND I LOOKED AT THE CLOTHES. THERE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THEM. I PUT THEM BACK WHERE THEY WERE AND I WAS STILL TALKING TO MR. KAELIN. I ASKED HIM IF THERE IS ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT BEFORE HE ANSWERED -- BEFORE I LET HIM ANSWER, I ASKED, 'WHO DRIVES THE BRONCO?' HE SAYS, 'WELL, THAT'S O.J.'S.' I SAID, 'IS THAT ALL? IS THAT THE ONLY PERSON THAT DRIVES IT?' AND HE GOES, 'YEAH.' I ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT HAPPENED THE PREVIOUS NIGHT. HE SAID, 'WELL, ABOUT QUARTER TO 11:00 I HEARD SOME CRASHING ON MY WALL AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AN EARTHQUAKE, BUT THAT WAS ONLY NOISE, JUST ONE TIME AND MY PICTURE SHOOK,' AND HE POINTED TO A PICTURE WHICH WAS JUST TO THE WEST OF HIS BED WHICH WOULD BE THE FAR RIGHT OF HIS ROOM LOOKING INTO HIS ROOM FROM THE DOORWAY. THEN HE SAID, 'I WENT OUTSIDE TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND I SAW A LIMO AT THE GATE....'" "...AT THAT POINT I INTERRUPTED HIM AND I TOOK HIM INTO THE HOUSE WHERE NOW MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER AND THE THREE DETECTIVES HAD ALREADY ENTERED THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE AND THE DOOR WAS OPENED."
DID YOU GIVE THAT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION ON YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK ON JULY 5TH?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO THAT IN FACT WHEN YOU INTERRUPTED MR. KAELIN, AFTER ASKING HIM ABOUT UNUSUAL EVENTS, YOU PUT TWO QUESTIONS, NO. 1, WHOSE BRONCO IS IT, AND NO. 2, IS HE THE ONLY ONE THAT DRIVES IT, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THEN, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
A: WELL, THERE WAS BLOOD ON THE VEHICLE.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, I SUGGESTED TO YOU SOME TIME AGO THAT YOU DIRECTED DETECTIVE VANNATTER TO GO IN AND INTERROGATE KAELIN AND YOU HAD SOME DOUBTS ABOUT THAT?
A: DOUBTS OF MY PRESENCE OF MIND, NO, NONE AT ALL.
Q: DOUBTS ABOUT WHETHER YOU WOULD GIVE AN ORDER TO A MAN AS SUPERIOR TO YOU AS THE LEAD DETECTIVE IN THIS CASE?
A: I DID NOT GIVE HIM ANY ORDER.
Q: WELL, WHEN YOU DESCRIBED BRINGING KAELIN INTO THE HOUSE MISS CLARK ASKED:
"WHERE DID YOU PUT HIM?"
AND YOU SAID:
"THERE'S A BAR INSIDE THAT LOOKS LIKE A RECREATION ROOM, A BILLIARD ROOM, AND JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THAT, AS YOU ARE ENTERING THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, THERE IS FOUR OR FIVE BARSTOOLS. I SAID, 'WHY DON'T YOU JUST SIT HERE FOR A SECOND. ONE OF THE DETECTIVES IS GOING TO TALK FOR A FEW MINUTES. JUST SIT HERE AND RELAX.' I CONTINUED TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND RIGHT BY THE KITCHEN I SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER, AND I TOLD HIM, I SAYS, 'TALK TO THE MAN THAT WAS IN THE BUNGALOW. HE IS SEATED AT THE BAR.' AND I CONTINUED OUT THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE."
NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU HAD BEEN TALKING WITH MR. KAELIN BEFORE YOU DECIDED TO GO OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, HAD YOU NOT?
A: YES.
Q: WHY DID YOU FIND IT NECESSARY THAT ANOTHER DETECTIVE TAKE UP THE INTERROGATION?
A: I DIDN'T THINK IT NECESSARY.
Q: WHY DID YOU DIRECT DETECTIVE VANNATTER TO DO IT?
A: I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE WHERE THE NOISE CAME FROM.
Q: WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL HIM THE SUBJECT MATTER ABOUT WHICH HE OUGHT TO BE CONCERNED, IF HE WAS GOING TO INTERROGATE A WITNESS?
A: NO REASON. I WANTED TO GO INVESTIGATE THE NOISE TO SEE IF WE COULD EVEN GET TO THAT SOUTH WALL.
Q: WHY DID YOU NOT TELL HIM THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO INVESTIGATE A NOISE AND HE SHOULD FINISH THE INTERROGATION?
A: NO REASON.
Q: NO REASON? OKAY.
ON THAT SAME PAGE.
RIGHT AFTER YOU SAID ON LINE 18:
"AND I CONTINUED OUT THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE," MISS CLARK SAID:
"WHY?" AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS:
"WELL, I WAS -- FROM THE STATEMENT HE MADE, THE CRASHING SOUND AND THE TIME THAT HE HEARD IT, COMBINED WITH THE BLOOD IN THE BRONCO, THE WAY I WAS FEELING IS THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THERE COULD BE ANOTHER VICTIM, A SUSPECT THAT HAD COLLAPSED OR ESCAPED VIA THAT ROUTE IN THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE HOUSE."
DO YOU READ THE ANSWER IN FRONT OF YOU?
A: I DO, SIR.
Q: DO YOU AGREE THAT I HAVE CITED IT CORRECTLY AS IT APPEARS IN THE TRANSCRIPT?
A: YES.
Q: HOW DID YOU KNOW AT THAT JUNCTURE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT THERE WAS OR WOULD BE BLOOD IN THE BRONCO?
A: I DIDN'T.
Q: WHY DID YOU USE THE WORD "IN"?
A: I'M NOT SURE I DID.
Q: IS THIS THE FIRST TIME IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT YOU USED THE WORD "IN"?
A: IT IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE READ IT, BUT I NEVER USED THE WORD "IN" AS FAR AS SAYING THERE WAS BLOOD IN THE BRONCO.
Q: YOU DIDN'T USE THE WORD "IN"?
A: I'M NOT SURE, SIR, BUT I DID NOT SEE ANY BLOOD IN THE BRONCO.
Q: YOU USED THE WORD "IN" THE BRONCO AND IT WAS UNINTENTIONAL, MIGHT THAT BE, SIR, A SLIP OF THE TONGUE?
A: NO, IT MIGHT NOT.
Q: IT MIGHT NOT. UNLESS IT WAS A SLIP OF THE TONGUE AND IF YOU IN FACT SAID IT, YOU HAVE NO EXPLANATION WHATSOEVER FOR THAT MISTAKE? IS THAT THE WAY YOU WISH TO LEAVE IT?
A: NO. I WISH TO LEAVE IT TO SAY THAT THERE WAS NO BLOOD THAT I OBSERVED INSIDE THE BRONCO PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE RESIDENCE THAT MORNING.
Q: MY QUESTION WAS, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IF YOU DID IN FACT SAY THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAD YOU DISTURBED AT THAT POINT WAS BLOOD IN THE BRONCO AND IT WASN'T A SLIP OF THE TONGUE, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE USED THAT WORD?
A: I DIDN'T SEE ANY BLOOD IN THE BRONCO, SIR.
Q: WHY WOULD YOU HAVE USED THE WORD "IN," DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, PLEASE?
A: I TOLD YOU I'M NOT SURE I DID.
Q: WELL, THERE IS A VIDEOTAPE OF YOUR TESTIMONY. HAVE YOU REVIEWED THAT RECENTLY?
A: NO, NEVER HAVE.
Q: DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD HELP TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE COURT REPORTER MADE THIS MISTAKE OR YOU DID?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WE WILL GET TO THAT.
ON PAGE 54, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, UNDER CROSS-EXAMINATION -- I'M SORRY -- TOWARD THE END OF YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK AND AFTER SAYING THAT YOU NOTICED THE GLOVE AND IDENTIFYING IT IN A PHOTO MARKED FOR THAT HEARING AS D, I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT YOU ASKED THESE QUESTIONS AND GAVE THESE ANSWERS:
"BY MISS CLARK: WHEN YOU SAW THAT GLOVE, DID IT HAVE SOME SIGNIFICANCE TO YOU?
"ANSWER: YES. IT LOOKED VERY SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE THAT I OBSERVED ON BUNDY HOURS BEFORE.
"QUESTION: AND BASED ON THAT OBSERVATION, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO?
"ANSWER: I LOOKED AT IT A LITTLE CLOSER. I NOTED THAT IT DID NOT MATCH THE TERRAIN....AS YOU CAN SEE, THERE IS A LOT OF DIRT AND LEAVES. THIS GLOVE WAS NOT DIRTY IN THE LEAST. IT LOOKED A LITTLE STICKY AND MOIST. TWO FINGERS WERE STUCK TO THE GLOVE. IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS STUCK THERE WITH SOME TYPE OF LIQUID. I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I WENT PAST THE AIR CONDITIONING DUCT THAT YOU CAN SEE IN PHOTO A AND AS SOON AS I WENT PAST THAT AIR CONDITIONING DUCT LOOKING FOR THE PERSON THAT MIGHT HAVE DROPPED THE GLOVE, THINKING THAT THEY WERE FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY, I RAN INTO SPIDERWEBS IMMEDIATELY."
DO YOU RECALL GIVING THAT ANSWER?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO I TAKE IT IT IS TRUE THAT YOUR FIRST STEP AFTER SEEING THE GLOVE WAS TO GO LOOK FOR THE PERSON WHO DROPPED IT?
A: YES.
Q: THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU EXPECTED THAT THE PERSON WHO DROPPED IT WOULD BE A KILLER?
A: I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. AS WE BROUGHT UP BEFORE, IT WAS...
Q: WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO FIND IN THE NATURE OF THE PERSON WHO HAD DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A: I HAD NO IDEA, SIR.
Q: AND THAT DIDN'T CAUSE YOU ANY APPREHENSION FOR YOUR SAFETY?
A: YES, IT DID.
Q: WELL, DID YOU TAKE ANY PRECAUTIONS?
A: YES.
Q: WHAT DID YOU DO?
A: I MOVED FORWARD INSTEAD OF BACKWARD.
Q: YOU MOVED FORWARD IN THE DIRECTION OF DANGER, INSTEAD OF BACKWARD AWAY FROM THE DIRECTION OF DANGER WHICH WAS A PRECAUTION AS YOU VIEWED IT?
A: YES. GIVING SOMEONE MY BACK WOULD BE FAR MORE HAZARDOUS THAN FACING A THREAT STRAIGHT ON.
Q: I'M SORRY. I THINK YOU SAID THAT AS YOU PROCEEDED PAST THE AIR CONDITIONING DUCT, THAT IS EAST WHERE YOU HADN'T BEEN, RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DID THAT LOOKING FOR THE PERSON THAT MIGHT HAVE DROPPED THE GLOVE?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: YOU SAID THAT, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: WELL, IF THAT IS THE CASE, THEN THE DANGER WAS IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOUR BACK WAS PERFECTLY SAFE, WASN'T IT?
A: IF I TURNED AROUND AND WENT BACK WEST IT WOULDN'T BE SAFE, SIR.
Q: OH, IT WAS SAFER IN YOUR VIEW TO FORGE ON AND MAYBE ENCOUNTER A KILLER THAN IT WAS TO GET OUT OF THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU ENCOUNTERED THE SPIDERWEBS DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT WHOEVER DROPPED THAT GLOVE HAD COME THE WAY YOU HAD COME AND HAD GONE BACK OUT THE SAME WAY?
A: IT WAS POSSIBLE, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THE CONDITION THAT THEY WERE IN WHEN THEY LEFT THAT GLOVE.
Q: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY CONDITION OF THE PERSON. IF THERE ARE SPIDERWEBS ACROSS A PASSAGEWAY, THE ODDS ARE FAIRLY GOOD THAT NO ONE HAS RUN THROUGH THIS RECENTLY, TRUE?
A: RUN, YES; CRAWLED, UNKNOWN.
Q: OR WALKED. DID YOU SEE ANY MARK ON THE GROUND INDICATING A HUMAN WAS CRAWLING THERE?
A: I SAW NO MARKS ON THE PATH....
Q: NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IN CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. UELMEN DIRECTED SOME QUESTIONS TO YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIVITIES AT BUNDY AND YOU DESCRIBED, AS YOU DID FOR US -- PAGE 64 AT THE TOP -- THAT:
"HAVING BEEN UNABLE TO SEE THE BODIES FROM YOUR ORIGINAL POSITION TO A SATISFACTORY DEGREE, RISKE TOOK YOU AROUND DOROTHY UP THE ALLEY AND IN THROUGH THE HOUSE SO YOU COULD COME OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND HAVE A BETTER VANTAGE POINT AT THE TOP OF THE STEPS WITHOUT WALKING THROUGH THE BLOOD," CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
AND AT THE TOP OF PAGE 64 YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT, AREN'T YOU?
A: YES, I AM.
Q: OKAY.
"QUESTION: HOW FAR WOULD YOU SAY YOU WERE FROM WHERE THE BODIES WERE LOCATED?
"ANSWER: I WAS DIRECTLY ABOVE THE FEMALE VICTIM WHICH WAS PROBABLY THREE FEET. THE MALE VICTIM WOULD HAVE BEEN TEN FEET, TWELVE FEET.
"QUESTION: ALL RIGHT. AND FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT YOU FIRST OBSERVED THE GLOVE THAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT?
"ANSWER: NOT FIRST, NO.
"QUESTION: WHEN DID YOU FIRST OBSERVE IT?
"ANSWER: WE HAD FLASHLIGHTS. WE WERE LOOKING AT THE FEMALE VICTIM. WE LOOKED AT THE MALE VICTIM. I NOTICED THE GLOVE WHEN I WALKED AROUND TO THE -- AFTER I EXITED THE RESIDENCE THE FIRST TIME AND WALKED AROUND TO THE SIDE OR THE NORTH SIDE, NORTH PERIMETER OF BUNDY OF 875 BUNDY, THERE IS AN IRON FENCE AND THROUGH THAT IRON FENCE YOU CAN GET VERY CLOSE TO THE MALE VICTIM, AND LOOKING THERE I COULD SEE THEM AT HIS FEET."
DID YOU USE THE WORD "THEM" IN YOUR ANSWER ON JULY 5TH?
A: YES, SIR. YES, SIR.
Q: AND WAS THE LAST ITEM TO WHICH "THEM" COULD HAVE APPLIED IN YOUR NARRATIVE THE WORD "GLOVE"?
A: SINGULAR, YES.
Q: I'M SIMPLY ASKING WHETHER GLOVE, LINE 14, WAS THE ITEM YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT JUST PRIOR TO SAYING "I SAW THEM AT HIS FEET"?
A: "THEM," I WAS REFERRING TO THE KNIT CAP, THE GLOVE.
Q: SHOW ME ANYWHERE ON THAT PAGE WHERE THE KNIT CAP IS MENTIONED? CAN YOU?
A: THAT PAGE, NO.
Q: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT.
DO YOU SEE ANYTHING ON THE PRIOR PAGE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, ABOUT THE KNIT CAP?
A: DO YOU WANT ME TO LOOK AT THAT PRIOR PAGE?
Q: SURE. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT. 63.
A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) I DO NOT....
Q: PAGE 65, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, LINE 8:
"DOES THAT PHOTO," REFERRING TO A PHOTO "ACCURATELY DEPICT THE GLOVE AT THE LOCATION WHERE YOU SAW IT?
"TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YES.
"QUESTION: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY PICK UP THE GLOVE TO EXAMINE IT, DID YOU?
"ANSWER: NOT AT THAT TIME, NO."
DID YOU GIVE THAT ANSWER?
A: YES.
Q: AT WHAT TIME DID YOU PICK UP THE GLOVE?
A: I DIDN'T. I TURNED THE GLOVE OVER WITH A PEN WHEN I RETURNED TO THE BUNDY SCENE AFTER BEING AT ROCKINGHAM.
Q: AND THAT IS WHAT YOU MEANT WHEN YOU SAID, "DIDN'T PICK UP THE GLOVE AT THAT TIME"? YOU HAD IN MIND TURNING IT OVER WITH A PEN?
A: I BELIEVE THAT WAS MR. UELMEN'S WORDS AND THE QUESTION. I DIDN'T USE THE WORD "PICK UP."
Q: BUT THE QUESTION WAS PUT TO YOU, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN. HE SAID:
"AND YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY PICK THE GLOVE UP TO EXAMINE IT, DID YOU?"
AND YOUR ANSWER WAS:
"NOT AT THAT TIME, NO."
DO YOU SEE ANYTHING IN THAT ANSWER THAT REFERS TO TURNING IT OVER WITH A PEN AT ANY TIME....?
A NOT ON THAT PAGE, NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE ANOTHER PAGE WHERE YOU INDICATED THAT THAT IS WHAT YOU MEANT BY LATER PICKING UP THE GLOVE?
A: NO, SIR....
Q: YESTERDAY, AND POSSIBLY LAST WEEK, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU INDICATED SOME UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHEN YOU WERE NOTIFIED THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS WAS IN FACT THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON.
DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU SAID YOU COULDN'T QUITE BE SURE WHEN YOU THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS THE FACT?
A: THAT THE FEMALE VICTIM WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
Q: YES.
A: YES, SIR, I REMEMBER.
Q: AS YOU SIT THERE TODAY, WHAT IS YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION AS TO WHEN YOU DECIDED OR YOUR SUPERIORS DECIDED THAT THIS WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON? WHAT TIME OF DAY?
A: I WOULD SAY ON JUNE 13TH SOMETIME BUT I DON'T RECOLLECT WHEN.
Q: ONE, TWO, THREE HOURS AFTER YOU GOT THERE?
A: I HAVE NO IDEA, SIR.
Q: IS IT FAIR TO INFER THAT YOU WENT TO NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON THAT HIS WIFE WAS DEAD A LITTLE AFTER 5:00, THAT YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS IN FACT DEAD, HIS EX-WIFE?
A: I DIDN'T GO THERE AT MY DIRECTION, SO I BELIEVE IT WAS ASSUMED AND I BELIEVE THEY WERE GOING THERE TO FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT HER OR MAKE A NOTIFICATION.
Q: PAGE 31, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q: QUESTION BY MISS CLARK AT LINE 4.
"WERE YOU AWARE" -- LINE 5 --
"WERE YOU AWARE OF WHO ONE OF THE -- AT LEAST THE FEMALE VICTIM WAS AT THAT TIME?
"ANSWER: I WAS NOTIFIED THAT -- WHEN I WAS NOTIFIED AT MY RESIDENCE AT 1:05 I WAS TOLD THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS WAS THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON.
"DID YOU RELAY THAT INFORMATION TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
"ANSWER: IT WAS RELAYED, YES."
NOW, AFTER YOU WERE TOLD AT 1:05 THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS DEAD, DID YOU CONTINUE TO DOUBT IT?
A: WE HAD NO INDICATION ABSOLUTELY THAT THAT WAS THE FEMALE VICTIM.
Q: DID YOU CHALLENGE MR. PHILLIPS IN ANY WAY WHEN HE TOLD YOU SHE WAS DEAD?
A: THERE WAS NO CHALLENGE INVOLVED, SIR.
Q: DID YOU QUESTION HIS ASSERTION AS TO HER IDENTITY?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU EVER QUESTION HIM?
A: I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION EARLY INTO THE INVESTIGATION.
Q: YOU WOULDN'T HAVE JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION OF THE IDENTITY OF THE VICTIM, EVEN THOUGH A DETECTIVE WHO WAS YOUR BOSS TOLD YOU WHAT IT WAS?
A: I DIDN'T QUESTION IT....
Q: NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IF YOU WOULD RETURN TO THE TRANSCRIPT AND IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT PAGE 21 OF JULY 6, WHICH IS TOWARD THE END, THE THIRD DIRECT EXAMINATION.
A: WHAT PAGE, SIR?
Q: 21, THE SECOND DAY.
A: SECOND DAY.
Q: IN RESPONSE TO A QUESTION THAT BEGAN ON 20TH LINE, 24:
"ALL RIGHT. WITH RESPECT TO FINDING THE GLOVE, AFTER YOU FOUND THE GLOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO? YOU SAW THE GLOVE ON THE WALK. THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?"
YOU ANSWERED:
"I CONTINUED EASTBOUND ON THE PATH THAT WENT TO THE REAR OF THE PROPERTY AND I SPENT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME, I'M GOING TO SAY ABOUT 15 MINUTES LOOKING FOR A PERSON THAT COULD HAVE LEFT THAT GLOVE THERE WHICH INDICATED SOMEBODY WAS INJURED. I LOOKED IN ALL THE PLACES I BELIEVED A HUMAN COULD SECRET HIMSELF OR COLLAPSE IN THAT AREA AND THEN I RETURNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE."
AND I ASSUME THE WORD "SECRET" WAS MEANT TO MEAN "SECRETE".
A: YES....
Q: OKAY.
AND THIS IS THE SEARCH THAT TOOK YOU THE 15 MINUTES?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, THERE WAS SOME QUESTION IN YOUR MIND EARLIER TODAY AS TO WHETHER YOU HAD TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE ABOUT YOUR THOUGHTS WHEN YOU TOOK THEM DOWN TO SEE THE GLOVE. DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: I RECALL THE QUESTION, YES.
Q: AND YOU WERE UNSURE AS TO WHETHER YOU HAD SAID ANYTHING TO THEM WHEN YOU WERE DOWN AT THE SCENE OF THE GLOVE?
A: YEAH. I DON'T RECALL IF I DID, NO....
Q: AFTER TAKING THE DETECTIVES TO VIEW THIS GLOVE, YOU WENT OUT TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE AND YOU JUST STOOD THERE, CORRECT?
A: FOR A FEW MOMENTS, YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WAS IT AT THAT POINT THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER ANNOUNCED THAT THIS WAS NOW A CRIME SCENE OR WAS IT LATER IN THE DAY AS YOU'VE TOLD US EARLIER?
A: I THINK THERE WAS DISCUSSION AT THAT POINT, BUT AT ABOUT THAT TIME, WE WERE SENT BACK TO BUNDY, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF.
Q: WELL, DID VANNATTER SAY, "WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HANDLE THIS LIKE A CRIME SCENE," WITHIN MINUTES OF SEEING THE GLOVE THAT YOU HAD POINTED OUT?
A: YES. BUT I THINK THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN "THIS IS NOW A CRIME SCENE."
Q: OH, I SEE. HE WAS SPECULATING ABOUT A FUTURE DECISION HE THOUGHT HE MIGHT MAKE. WAS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING?
A: YES....
Q: OKAY.
NOW, YOU SAID, "WHEN I FOUND THE GLOVE AND ACTUALLY REALIZED THIS GLOVE WAS VERY CLOSE IN DESCRIPTION AND COLOR TO THE GLOVE AT THE CRIME SCENE." CAN YOU TELL US WHEN THAT POINT WAS WITHIN THIS PERIOD?
A: I TESTIFIED BEFORE SEVERAL TIMES THAT WHEN I SAW THE GLOVE, IT LOOKED VERY SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE ON BUNDY.
Q: THE CONNECTION WAS IMMEDIATE IN YOUR MIND?
A: YES.
Q: IS THAT CORRECT?
A: THAT CONNECTION THAT IT LOOKED VERY SIMILAR, YES....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU DESCRIBED THAT YOU WERE CAUGHT ON A TINY TWO-FOOT PATH ALL ALONE WITH A LITTLE TINY FLASHLIGHT AND NO VEST BY WHICH YOU MEANT A BULLETPROOF VEST, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO THIS COURT HOW IT WAS THAT YOU WERE CAUGHT THERE...?
A WELL, I WAS COMMITTED TO THAT POINT.
Q: COMMITTED HOW?
A: BECAUSE I WAS THERE.
Q: YOU HAD NOBODY WITH YOU.
A: I WAS COMMITTED BY MY PRESENCE.
Q: YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE WITH YOU, DID YOU?
A: NO.
Q: YOU WEREN'T WEARING A VEST YOU'VE SAID.
A: YES.
Q: YOUR FLASHLIGHT WAS RATHER INADEQUATE FOR THE TASK, RIGHT?
A: IT WAS NOT THE BEST IT COULD BE, NO.
Q: BUT YOU COMFORTED YOURSELF THAT YOU COULD PROCEED DESPITE THESE DEFICIENCIES BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD FIND A VICTIM RATHER THAN A SUSPECT?
A: I WAS CONCERNED WITH THAT, YES.
Q: TELL THE COURT IF YOU CAN WHY THE PRESENCE OF THE OTHER MURDER GLOVE FROM BUNDY MADE YOU THINK THAT YOU WERE ABOUT TO ENCOUNTER A VICTIM, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
A: BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A SUSPECT THERE OTHER THAN THE BLOODY GLOVE.
Q: YOU REALIZE THAT YOU HAVE TOLD US EARLIER --
A: YES.
Q: -- TESTIFIED UNDER OATH EARLIER --
A: YES.
Q: -- THAT THE BLOODY GLOVE MADE YOU THINK YOU WOULD FIND A SUSPECT?
A: OR A VICTIM.
Q: BUT BY FAR, THE MORE LIKELY A SUSPECT YOU SAID; DID YOU NOT?
A: YES.
Q: BUT HERE, YOU'VE SAID ON YOUR OATH THAT THE ONLY REASON YOU PROCEEDED UNARMED AND ALONE OR AT LEAST WITHOUT A VEST AND ALONE WAS BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T EXPECT TO FIND A SUSPECT. YOU SAID THAT, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES, I DID....
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU DID NOT THINK THAT YOU WOULD BE IN DANGER IF YOU PROCEEDED EASTBOUND THROUGH THE COBWEBBY PATH BECAUSE WHOEVER YOU WOULD FIND WOULD BE HURT AND NOT DANGEROUS?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS NO FEELING OF DANGER, NO.
Q: BUT YOU DID SAY, "I MUST ADMIT, I THINK THE ONLY REASON I PROCEEDED IS, I FELT MORE THAT I MIGHT HAVE HAD A VICTIM THAN A SUSPECT"?
A: MAYBE THAT WAS A HOPE.
Q: YOU NOW SAY THAT WAS A HOPE AND NOT A THOUGHT?
A: NO. I'M SAYING MAYBE THAT WAS A HOPE, A PRESENCE OF MIND THEN AND AT THE PRELIM....
Q: OKAY.
WHEN YOU DESCRIBED THIS EXPERIENCE YESTERDAY, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU WERE STANDING, HAVING BEEN RELIEVED, WAITING FOR YOUR REPLACEMENT AT THE INTERSECTION OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY, CORRECT?
A: WE'RE TALKING AT THE BUNDY LOCATION NOW?
Q: YES.
A: OH YES, SIR. THE NORTH RESIDENCE FROM BUNDY.
Q: LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, YOUR ULTIMATE BOSS IN THE BUREAU OF DETECTIVES, CAME AND BROUGHT YOU UP TO THE FENCE WHERE GOLDMAN'S BODY WAS CRUMPLED?
A: YES....
Q: AND THERE, LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, HAVING INVITED YOU TO TAKE A LOOK, YOU EXAMINED GOLDMAN'S BODY AND FOUND A LACERATION.
A: THAT WAS OBSERVED BY LIEUTENANT SPANGLER.
Q: BUT YOU SAW IT TOO?
A: OH, YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU THOUGHT IT WAS A TEAR?
A: I USED THE WORD "LACERATION."
Q: AND WHEN I ASKED YOU TO DESCRIBE IT FURTHER, DID YOU NOT SAY IT WAS TORN?
A: NO. I SAID LACERATION IS TEARING, IT'S NOT AN INCISION.
Q: OKAY.
IN ANY EVENT, WHEN I ASKED YOU IF THERE WAS ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU SAW AT THAT POINT, YOU SAID NO, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY.
NOW, ON JULY 5TH AT PAGE 64, WHICH WE HAVE REVIEWED, WHEN YOU DESCRIBE THE SAME INCIDENT, THERE IS NO MENTION WHATSOEVER OF YOUR HAVING BEEN RELIEVED, IS THERE? PAGE 64, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.
A: YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE ME A LINE, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
STARTING AT THE TOP, JUST READING TO YOURSELF SO THAT YOU CAN LOCATE YOURSELF AS YOU DID THIS MORNING, ON THE STEPS LOOKING DOWN AT THE FEMALE VICTIM AND NOT BEING ABLE TO CLEARLY SEE THE MALE VICTIM.
A: THAT'S CORRECT.
Q: OKAY.
YOU SAID THEN, LINE 14 -- 12:
"WE HAD FLASHLIGHTS. WE WERE LOOKING AT THE FEMALE VICTIM. WE LOOKED AT THE MALE VICTIM."
YOU'RE STILL ON THE STEPS, RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU SAID:
"I NOTICED THE GLOVE WHEN I WALKED AROUND TO THE -- AFTER I EXITED THE RESIDENCE THE FIRST TIME AND WALKED AROUND TO THE SIDE ON THE NORTH SIDE, NORTH PERIMETER OF 875 BUNDY...."THERE'S AN IRON FENCE, AND THROUGH THAT IRON FENCE, YOU CAN GET VERY CLOSE TO THE MALE VICTIM. AND LOOKING THERE, I COULD SEE THEM DOWN AT HIS FEET."
WE READ THAT EARLIER; DO YOU RECALL?
A: YES, SIR....
Q: ALL RIGHT.
NOW, WHEN YOU GAVE THIS TESTIMONY, HAD YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE LACERATION?
A: NO.
Q: HAD YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY.
ONCE MORE THEN, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WE ASKED YOU TO LOOK AT PAGE 49 THIS MORNING BECAUSE OF A WORD THAT APPEARS ON LINE 23 OF THAT PAGE RELATING TO "BLOOD IN THE BRONCO."
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU AGREE THAT THAT'S WHAT THE PAGE SAYS?
A: I AGREE, SIR.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
BUT YOUR FEELING WAS THAT THE REPORTER MADE A MISTAKE?
A: I DIDN'T SAY THAT. I JUST DID NOT MEAN "IN THE BRONCO."
Q: PARDON ME? WHAT WAS YOUR ANSWER?
A: COULD YOU ASK -- ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN, SIR?
Q: YOU SAID THE REPORTER DIDN'T MAKE A MISTAKE, BUT THE WORD IS THERE SOMEHOW?
A: I DON'T KNOW. I JUST KNOW WHAT I MEANT WHEN I TESTIFIED.
Q: ALL RIGHT.
SO THAT IF YOU IN FACT USED THE WORD "IN," YOU MISSPOKE YOURSELF?
A: YES....
(AT 1:58 P.M., A VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED.)
Q: BY MR. BAILEY: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A: ABSOLUTELY, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
AND WHAT DO YOU NOW SAY YOU SAID?
A: "IN."
Q: "IN."
A: YES....
Q: OKAY.
DID YOU SAY WHILE IN THE RECRUITING STATION AT ANY TIME DURING THOSE YEARS THAT WHEN YOU SEE A NIGGER DRIVING WITH A WHITE WOMAN, YOU PULL THEM OVER?
A: NO.
Q: DO YOU RECALL ANYONE ASKING YOU IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A REASON TO PULL THEM OVER, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
A: I DON'T RECALL ANYBODY EVER ASKING ME THAT QUESTION, SIR.
Q: DID YOU EVER MAKE A STATEMENT THAT IF YOU NEEDED A REASON, YOU WOULD FIND ONE?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY. NEXT PARAGRAPH.
DID YOU SAY AT ANY TIME IN THAT RECRUITING STATION IN THE PRESENCE OF ANY FEMALE INCLUDING KATHLEEN BELL THAT YOU'D LIKE NOTHING MORE THAN TO SEE ALL NIGGERS GATHERED TOGETHER AND KILLED?
A: NO....
Q: OKAY.
YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT YOU DO GO INTO HENNESSEY'S TAVERN?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU DO NOT HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THE NAME ANDREA TERRY BEING THERE...?
A: NO, I DO NOT.
Q: DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION IN '85 AND '86 IN HENNESSEY'S TAVERN WITH A TALL WOMAN WHEREIN YOU SAID THAT BLACK MEN WHO HAVE WHITE WOMEN IN THEIR COMPANY ARE VIOLATING AN ACT OF NATURE?
A: NO.
Q: AND THAT YOU WOULD ARREST THEM WHENEVER YOU SAW THAT OCCUR?
A: NO.
Q: THAT DID NOT OCCUR AT ANY TIME?
A: NO.
Q: AND IS THAT THE KIND OF LANGUAGE OR EXPRESSION, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT YOU WOULD REMEMBER CLEARLY IF THOSE STATEMENTS HAD BEEN MADE?
A: YES.
Q: SO AS OF THE MOMENT, YOU WOULD SAY THAT IF EITHER KATHLEEN BELL OR ANDREA TERRY CLAIMS THAT YOU MADE THOSE STATEMENTS, THAT WOULD NECESSARILY BE FALSE?
A: YES.
Q: AND THAT IF JOE FOSS, THE MARINE, SAYS THAT HE IN FACT INTRODUCED YOU TO KATHLEEN BELL OUTSIDE THE RECRUITING STATION AS SHE EMERGED FROM THE COFFEE SHOP AND THAT THE TWO OF YOU TALKED ABOUT A DATE, THAT WOULD NECESSARILY BE FALSE?
A: THAT'S CORRECT....
COURT ADJOURNS FOR THE DAY.