CARLTON WALLACE MILLER, called as a witness for and on behalf of Plaintiff, was sworn and testified as follows:
CARLTON WALLACE MILLER
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Will you tell the court your full name please?
A Carlton Wallace Miller.
Q How old are you?
A 43 years old sir.
Q Where do you live?
A Meridian Mississippi.
Q Are you married?
A I am sir.
Q What is your occupation?
A A policeman with the Meridian Police Department.
Q How long have you been a policeman with the Police Department in Meridian?
A Twenty years on April.
Q What is your present job.
A I'm a Sergeant.
Q What responsibilities do you have as a sergeant?
A I am the shift man there in the absence of the assistant. chief.
Q Do you hold any other jobs at this time?
A Yes sir, I worked at a grocery store.
Q And whose grocery store?
A Its my wife.
Q Do you know Preacher Killen?
A I do, sir.
Q Can you identify him looking around in the courtroom and see if you can identify him?
A He's over here sir.
Q How long have you known him?
A About all my life.
Q How do you happen to know him?
A Well I'm from up in Neshoba County originally and that's where Mr. Killen is from.
Q What were the circumstances of your acquaintance?
A Mr. Killen and I were in the same class at school and we lived near each other and we were closely associated and we are distantly related.
Q Did you and Mr. Killen maintain that relationship after you grew up?
A Yes sir over the years.
Q During the period of 1950 did you see him?
A In 1956, uh, 1955 I had a brother that passed away and Mr. Killen conducted the services. In 1956, I had two children to pass away, also one in 1957 and he conducted the services of those children.
Q Did you see him during the 1960's?
A Yes.
Q Now specifically during the period of 1963 early 1964, did you see Preacher Killen?
A Yes sir, I saw him several times.
Q What were the circumstances of you seeing him on those occasions?
A Mr. Killen has visited in my home several times.
Q And where were those visits? Here in Meridian?
A Yes sir.
Q Have you ever been a member of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A I have sir.
Q What is the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A It's an organization called the Ku Klux Klan.
Q When you were first contacted to become a member of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A It was in the latter part of March or early April.
Q Of what year?
A In 1964.
Q By whom?
A Mr. Killen.
Q Were, uh, where were you contacted?
A By whom?
Q Mr. Killen.
Q Were, uh, where were you contacted?
A At the police department.
Q Can you tell us in your own words what was said?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor if it please the Court, we object as to the conversation affecting the other defendants.
BY THE COURT:
I'll let him tell what Killen said and that will not be competent against any other defendants.
BY THE WITNESS:
A Mr. Killen told me there was a strong organization and asked me if I was interested in joining to help keep the colored people from integrating our schools and I told him I was definitely interested.
Q Did you see Preacher Killen again that day?
A Yes sir.
Q Where did you see him?
A He came to the police station that night. I was working the three til eleven at night and he came to the police station when I got off and went home with me.
Q What happened when you got to your home?
A We discussed this organization and I asked him if it was the Ku Klux Klan and he told me it was, and up until that time the name had never been called. He asked me if I was still interested and I told him that I was.
Q Then what happened?
A He joined me.
Q And where was that?
A In my dining room in my home.
Q And how did he join you?
A He read some papers to me, asked me some questions and gave me the oath.
Q Now dod you know what Preacher Killen's title was with the Ku Klux Klan?
A I didn't at that time, I later learned it was Kleagle.
Q What is Kleagle?
A Organizer.
Q And what happened if anything on the next day?
A I don't believe that I was him the next day.
Q When did you see him next?
A Probably the following weekend.
Q Where did you see him?
A He either came to my house or to the police station we would usually contact each other at my home or the police department.
Q What did you do?
A We went to the Longhorn Drive-Inn.
Q What is the Longhorn Drive Inn?
A Its a restaurant located down on Tom Bailey Drive.
Q And who did you see at the Longhorn Drive-Inn?
A Mr. Herndon, Frank Herndon.
Q Now will you look around the courtroom and see if you recognize Mr. Herndon?
A Yes sir, there on the end there.
Q Could you identify him for the Court and Jury?
A He's wearing a robe.
Q And did you see anyone else there that day?
A Mr. Jordan.
Q What is his first name?
A Jim, James.
Q Do you see him in the courtroom?
A I don't see him sir.
Q Then what happened on that occasion?
A We went out on the mountain and Mr. Killen swore in Mr. Jordan and Mr. Herndon into the Klan.
Q Did you have any further meetings with Mr. Killen about the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Yes about a week from this date, uh, from this time we met again down on Tom Bailey Drive at a trailer home.
Q Can you look around here on the inside of the rail and tell me if any of these persons were present at that time?
A Mr. Harris and Mr. Snowden were present.
Q Can you identify them?
A Mr. Harris has on the green sweater and Mr. Snowden has on the suit sitting next to Mr. Harris.
Q Is Mr. Snowden sitting on the left or the right of Mr. Harris?
A To his right.
Q On his right. And what happened at that meeting?
A That was the time I believe that he swore them in.
Q Do you, uh, did you attend other meetings of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan prior to the 21st day of June, 1964?
A Yes sir.
Q And can you tell me whether or not you can recognize any other members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan that are in the court room? You may look around.
A I know Mr. Atkins.
Q Just identify him, which one is he?
A He's this gentleman right her sir, second one from the end.
Q Sitting next to whom?
A Mr. Killen.
Q Do you recognize anyone else?
A I know Mr. Barnette sir.
Q And who is Mr. Barnette?
A He's the ex-sheriff and sheriff-elect of Neshoba County.
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor, if it please the Court, as I understand the answer its not responsive to the question---
Counsel mumbling and unable to understand.
BY THE COURT:
I don't believe it was responsive so ask him that question again.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Which ones of defendants did you meet at meetings of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan between that date that you have heretofore described and of June 21st, 1964.
A I met Mr. Roberts, Mr. Barnette, and the second Mr. Barnette and Mr. Arledge, Mr. Harris and Mr. Snowden, Mr. Herndon, Mr. Bowers, Mr. Akin, Mr. Killen.
Q And where were those meetings unusually held?
A Usually they were held out at Key Field at a warehouse.
Q Who was head of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Sam Bowers, do you mean over the State?
Q Yes sir.
A Mr. Sam Bowers.
Q Can you identify Mr. Bowers for us?
A He's sitting right over there sir.
Q Do you know where he lives?
A Laurel.
Q What discussion were there at these meatiness as to the programs of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
BY MR. PIGFORD:
We object, Your Honor, there hasn't been any discussion testified to about any specific defendant.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I'll overrule your objection, go along.
BY THE WITNESS:
A I didn't understand your question.
Q Was there any discussion about the program of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Yes sir, we were opposed to integration, we were opposed to the colored going to white schools that was the main thing we were opposed to, and usually that was the topic of our discussions mostly.
Q What discussion was there with respect to---
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
We object to his leading question, Your Honor.
BY MR. WATKINS:
And we object further to the fact there has been no showing that any particular time the generalized knowledge of this man or what he may have learned by membership in an order without these boys being present would not be admissible at all, your Honor.
BY THE COURT:
I think that's correct, but I'll overrule the first objection, as to the second objection I will sustain that unless and until this witness has tied these defendants or some of them in with those discussions.
BY. MR. DOAR:
Q Did you prior to June 21st, 1964 ever hear Preacher Killen discuss methods of controlling negro citizens of Mississippi?
BY MR. ALFORD:
Your Honor please, I would like to interpose an object to that question, as a generalized questioned and it goes back prior to June 21, 1964 and we think we are entitled to specific time and place and the names of persons present, therefore, we respectfully object to these generalized questions.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I think we are interested in and concerned with the time about the 21st or the 22nd of June, 1964 or some date in reasonable proximity to it and you will ask your question in such way to illicit specific answers.
BY MR. DOAR:
All right, Your Honor.
Q In May, 1964 did you have any discussion with Preacher Killen with respect to methods of controlling negro citizens in the State of Mississippi?
BY THE COURT:
Overruled.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Your Honor, we would raise and objection to the date of May. Your Honor please, that's thirty days or thirty-one days and no specific time or place.
BY THE COURT:
Yes sir, I think that's in reasonable proximity so I'll overrule that objection.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q You may answer.
A Yes sir, we were to apply pressure.
BY MR. WEIR:
We object unless he names some place or persons that were present.
BY THE COURT:
Well, he can't tell us everything he knows in one breath, and its hard, and you gentleman are going to have a chance to cross examine and I'm sure you are going to avail yourself of that rather extensively so, I'll overrule your objection.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Now then, was there to be various types of pressure.
A Yes sir, to begin with we were to call them up or go to see them and threaten them on their jobs and things of that nature.
BY THE COURT:
Go to see whom?
BY THE WITNESS:
Their bosses.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Was there any other kind of pressure that was discussed?
A Whippings and beatings.
Q Was there any kind of procedure whereby such type of action would have to be proved by the Whites Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Just a minute Your Honor, we object to that question. Its leading and suggesting, and he's still asking those generalized questions, and we respectfully submit that is not admissible.
BY THE COURT:
I'll overrule the objection.
BY THE WITNESS:
A After the pressure was applied and they didn't respond then we were to resort to physical pressure if we wanted to whip someone the lodge would vote on it and then the lodge president or the E.C.--- would---
BY MR. WEIR:
Your Honor please, we object to that unless it is referred to the three particular people that is said to have been involved in the indictment, rather than just what was to be done to somebody else.
BY THE COURT:
I'll overrule the objection.
BY THE WITNESS:
A The lodge would take a vote on it and then the President or the E.G. of the lodge either had the power to reject it or to okay it, to okay the beating?
Q Now, was there any other action?
A There was elimination.
Q What does elimination mean?
A Murder.
Q Within the Klan structure?
A That's a term for murdering some, killing them.
Q And how did that have to be approved if at all?
A That had to be approved by the Imperial Wizard. If the Klan unit wanted them disposed of would turn that over to the Kleagle in this area or the organizer and then he would carry it to the Imperial Wizard.
Q Now, can you tell me whether or not there was a unit or Klavern of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Neshoba?
A I understand it was.
BY MR. ALFORD, PIGFORD, WEIR: (BASIS NOT RECORDED BY REPORTED AS ALL COUNSEL TALKING AT ONE TIME)
We object.
BY THE COURT:
Sustained.
BY MR. ALFORD:
We request that the Jury be instructed to disregard the answer, Your Honor.
BY THE COURT:
That answer is not competent Members of the Jury, you will not consider it.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q During the month of May, did you ever go to Neshoba County on Klan visits, during May of 1964?
A I went up there but I didn't go to a Klan meeting.
Q Who did you meet, if anyone, up there?
A Preacher Killen, I met him at a little restaurant just this side of town.
Q And what was the purpose of your meeting with him?
A To keep some negroes from playing baseball in Philadelphia.
Q Did you meet anyone else up there?
A Preacher Killen called someone and he told me that Sheriff Rainey and Deputy Price were coming out.
BY MR. ALFORD:
We object to that.
BY THE COURT:
Overruled.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Did the Sheriff and Cecil Price come out?
A Yes sir.
Q And did you meet them?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you know if they are members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Sir, I don't know.
Q You don't know that?
A No sir.
Q Now, what if any discussion were had at meetings of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan during the latter part of April and May, 1964 in Meridian, Mississippi about Michael Schwerner?
A The meeting that I attended---
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor, if it please the Court, I object to the question unless it is shown that one of these defendants was present.
BY THE COURT:
Let me get that question again please?
BY MR. DOAR:
Q At the meetings in late April, and May of 1964 at the White Knights Klavern, the White Knights of the Meridian Klavern, what if any discussion was had among members about Michael Schwerner?
BY THE COURT:
Now that would not be proper unless and until some of these eighteen defendants were tied in with that, and I'll let you tell if there were and if there weren't I'll sustain the objection.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Do you understand the question?
A Yes sir, I think I do. Some of the members wanted to whip Schwerner.
Q Let me ask you this, who was in charge of that meeting?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor if it please the Court I think the Jury should be asked to disregard his answer.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I'm not sure, I'll let you develop this a little bit, and I think he understands my ruling, he says he does and I hope he does and I wouldn't think he would answer it like that if he didn't when he says he does understand.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Who was in charge of that meeting?
A Mr. Killen and Mr. Herndon.
Q And what others of the defendant were present at that meeting if you recall?
A I don't recall.
Q What was said in Mr. Killen and Mr. Herndon's presence about Michael Schwerner?
A Prior to the meeting of this particular one, they wanted to whip Schwerner, at this meeting, they reported that they hadn't been able to see him. Mr. Killen told us to leave him along that another unit was going to take care of him, that his elimination had been approved.
Q Did he say by whom it had been approved?
A By the Imperial Wizard.
Q Who is the Imperial Wizard?
A He didn't use his name at that time, he just said by the Imperial Wizard.
Q Do you know who the Imperial Wizard is?
A Yes sir, Mr. Bowers.
Q What if anything did Mr. Killen say about, I'll withdraw that question. Did Mr. Killen or any of the other members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan have any particular name for Michael Schwerner?
A They called him "Goatee."
Q What if anything did Mr. Killen say about whether or not Michael Schwerner had visited Neshoba County?
A He told me they were working with the COFO in Philadelphia.
Q Did anyone from Meridian go with you up to Philadelphia to meet Preacher Killen, any of these defendants?
A Mr. Roberts went with me.
Q Can you identify him?
A He's sitting right down there.
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
May it please the Court, we don't know what time he's talking about.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Can you fix the time of that trip to Philadelphia?
A I don't remember the date.
Q Can you fix the month?
A It was April or May, I believe it was around May.
Q Of what year?
A Sixty-four.
Q Now, have you been paid any money for any information that you have given by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
A I have sir.
Q And when did you start furnishing information to Federal Bureau of Investigation?
A About the middle of September of sixty-four.
Q How long did you remain a member of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Q Until December of 1964.
A And did you have following June 21st a conversation with Frank Herndon about the three COFO workers who were missing in Philadelphia on June 21st?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
To which I object, Your Honor, this would be after the conspiracy if there was any conspiracy, and it would not be admissible as to these defendants other than Mr. Herndon.
BY THE COURT:
I think that is correct and I'll let him answer and the jury will understand that his answer will only be chargeable to defendant Herndon and will be completely disregarded and removed from your minds insofar as the other defendants are concerned.
BY MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Herndon, I object further unless he states time, and place, otherwise Mr. Herndon would not have an opportunity to refute it at all.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, you may be as specific about that as you can.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Officer Miller, can you fix the time and place and persons present when that conversation took place?
A I returned from Summer Camp in the National Guard on June 21st, 1964 and that was on Sunday and I saw Mr. Herndon on Tuesday, that would be about June 23, 1964.
Q Where were you?
A We were at his restaurant.
Q And who was present?
A Mr. Jordan.
Q And what, if anything, was said about the missing three civil rights workers?
BY MR. WEIR:
Your Honor please, may we have a continuing objection about this?
BY THE COURT:
With respect to this line of questioning, and with respect to this particular incident you may have a continuing objection and it's overruled.
BY MR. WEIR:
Thank you.
BY MR. ALFORD:
Just a minute, Your Honor, I don't want to belabor the Court, but I wanted to understand the Court's ruling. As I understand it this witness testimony is not to pertain to anybody but Mr. Herndon and anybody that he names, is that correct?
BY THE COURT:
That's correct, insofar as I know understand, I've heard nobody else's name mentioned up to this point. All right.
BY THE WITNESS:
A Mr. Herndon and I and Mr. Jordan were discussing the civil rights workers being missing, and Mr. Herndon asked me, if anything, the police department was doing about it and I told him we had a missing person report on them was all that we had done that we were looking for them.
Q Did you have a further conversation with Mr. Herndon about the missing civil rights workers?
A After that I saw Mr. Herndon practically every day.
Q Can you tell me whether or not you had further or did he tell you anything further about the missing civil rights workers?
BY MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor please, we respectfully object because every conversation he's asking about is after the day of June 21, 1964.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I'll overrule your objection as I understand it you are making it on behalf of Mr. Herndon, and I'll overrule it but I think anytime he makes a statement about anything that Mr. Herndon is said to have said to him that he'll give us the time, the place and the date as nearly as he can.
BY THE WITNESS:
A The next thing I remember was the date that the car was recovered. Mr. Herndon told me that someone goofed up they were supposed to carry that car to Birmingham.
Q What car?
A The civil rights worker's car.
Q Would you repeat that entire answer, I interrupted you and the reporter may not have gotten all of it.
A Mr. Herndon told me the day that they recovered the car, the burned car, that they were supposed to carry that car to Birmingham, that somebody had goofed up that it was supposed to be carried to Birmingham and disposed of.
Q And where did that conversation take place?
A At the Longhorn.
Q Do you remember the date of that?
A I believe it was on the day they recovered the car, probably on a Wednesday or Thursday.
Q Who was present?
A I don't recall anyone being present at this time.
Q Did you have any further conversation with Mr. Herndon about the three missing civil rights workers?
A He told me one time he figured they had gone to Cuba or some place like that.
Q What if anything did he say about what happened at the Longhorn restaurant on the night of June 21, 1964?
A He told me that Mr. Killen came down and they got some boys together and went to Neshoba County.
Q Did he place the time and place of that happening.
A You mean where we were?
Q Yes.
A We were at the Longhorn Restaurant.
Q Could you tell me about how long after June 21st that was?
A About the 23rd or 24th?
Q Where is the Longhorn Drive-Inn?
A Down on Tom Bailey Drive, sir.
BY THE COURT:
Is that a restaurant?
BY THE WITNESS:
Yes sir.
BY THE COURT:
Whose restaurant is it?
BY THE WITNESS:
It's Mr. Garrett, Mr. Herndon was the Manager of it.
BY THE COURT:
All right.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Now, did you have any conversation with Mr. Killen after June 21 about the three missing civil rights workers?
A Yes sir. . . .
Q And as to the first conversation where did that take place?
A At my home.
Q And who was present?
A Just Mr. Killen and I.
Q When was that?
A June.
Q And what did Mr. Killen say?
A He told me that he wanted to talk to me and he and I went back to my back room and we sat on the bed, and we were discussing the civil rights workers. Mr. Killen told me that they had been shot, that they were dead, and that they were buried in a dam about 15 feet deep, and he told me that Deputy Price told the F.B.I. the truth about what time he turned them out.
BY MR. ALFORD:
We object, this is hearsay.
BY THE COURT:
Overruled.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q What else did he say?
A He told me that they got in a chase down Highway 19 at about a hundred miles an hour and he overtaken them and he said he thought that the car tried to turn and go toward Union from House and that's where they overtaken them in that area there.
Q What if anything didi he say about a church burning.
A This was later on.
Q Did you have a conversation with him about the church burning?
A Yes sir, he told me---
Q Just a minute. Where was that conversation?
A At the same time.
Q Was it that evening?
A Yes sir.
Q And who was present?
A No one.
Q What did he say?
A He told me they burned the church to get the civil rights workers up there, referring to Schwerner.
Q Now, which of the persons in this room do you know of your own knowledge are members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan before June 21st?
BY MR. ALFORD:
Your Honor, we object to this being repetitious he's already asked him that.
BY THE COURT:
I'll let him answer, overruled.
BY THE WITNESS:
A Mr. Roberts, Mr. Barnette---
BY THE COURT:
Call their first names, so we'll know who you are talking about.
BY THE WITNESS:
Mr. Wayne Roberts, Mr. Travis Barnette, Mr. Doyle Barnette, Jimmy Arledge, Mr. Harris, Pete Harris; Jimmy Snowden, Mr. Herndon, Mr. Bowers, Mr. Akins, and Mr. Killen.
BY MR. DOAR:
After June 21st, did you have any conversation with Mr. B.L. Akin about the three missing civil rights workers?
A Yes sir.
Q Can you tell me the time and place of that conversation?
A I talked to Mr. Akins down at the Longhorn drive-inn and I've talked to Mr. Akins at his place of business, I talked to Mr. Akins in my car, and I also talked to him in his car, we were just riding around.
Q And what if anything did he say anything on any one of these occasions about---
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
May it please the Court we object to these leading questions, he can ask him what he said but he can't ask him what they talked about.
BY THE COURT:
Well, we are just interested in what he said about a very specific subject matter, and I think his question would have to be limited and I'll overrule your objection.
BY MR. MILLER:
A Mr. Akins told me---
BY THE COURT:
Yes, just tell us specifically when it was, where it was and who was present and then tell us if one or more of these defendants accused said?
BY THE WITNESS:
A This was in the latter part of June of '64, Mr. Akins and I were together and he told me---
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor, if it please the Court, I would like to interpose an objection the same as before that this is actually a continuation of the conspiracy---
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I make the same ruling.
BY THE WITNESS:
A Mr. Akins told me that they had went up and burned the Mt. Zion Church for the purpose of getting Michael Schwerner up there.
Q What if anything else, did he say anything else about the three civil rights workers?
A Mr. Akins told me that the night it happened that did not go, but that he and Mr. Lyde stayed together and waited until they got back, and he said he gassed up the men's cars that went up there.
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
Your Honor please, we object he didn't name a place or date or who was present, and we object unless he does.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Can you give us a time, place and the ones that was present during that conversation?
A At this conversation no one was with Mr. Akins and myself. We were sitting in the car drinking some coffee?
Q What time was that?
A It was the latter part of June.
Q What year?
A 1964.
Q What city?
A Meridian.
Q Where was your car parked?
A Down at the Longhorn.
BY THE COURT:
I believe we'll take a fifteen minutes recess at this point.
(whereupon the Court took a recess at 3:31 P.M. for fifteen minutes.
AFTER RECESS:
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Officer Miller, any conversation that you testified to with Preacher Killen at your home, what, if anything did he say about his activities on the 21st?
A Preacher Killen told me that he came to Meridian, that he had received a call that the civil rights workers had been arrested and that he came to Meridian and got with Mr. Herndon and they made some calls at the Longhorn at a pay phone on the outside and got some boys together and went to Philadelphia.
Q How did you happen to leave the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A They banished me.
Q And what does banish mean?
A Kicked me out.
Q And during the time, when was that?
A December of 1964.
Q Up to that time did you furnish on a regular basis information to the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
A I did sir, from about the middle of September until then.
Q About how much were you paid?
A Over a two year period about from September through the end, approximately how much?
A Probably fifteen or sixteen hundred dollars.
Q What did this, what was this for?
A It was for the work that I was doing, traveling expenses and go all over the communities.
Q And was that in connection to being a Klan member?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you travel around as a Klan member?
A Yes sir.
Q And where, for example, did you travel?
A I went all over the city, Lauderdale County, Jones County, Laurel, Philadelphia, and different places out in the country.
Q Did you on occasions go down to Laurel to see the Imperial Wizard? Mr. Sam Bowers?
A Yes sir.
Q How many times?
A Probably about three or four times, I went a few times and didn't get to see him because he wasn't there.
Q You did see him on several occasions?
A Three or four, yes sir.
Q Thank you.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court.
Q Wallace, as pertains to Frank Herndon, Jimmy Arledge, James Harris, Travis Burnette, and Jimmy Snowden and Alton Wayne Roberts, now you, yourself personally, never did see or hear either of those defendants make a threat abusive word, intimidation of any kind toward Andrew Goodman, James Chaney, or Michael Schwerner, did you. Did you, yourself personally see that?
A No sir, I didn't hear any.
Q Did me first, the date please when you joined the Klan?
A Later part of March or early April of 1964.
Q Wallace, what was your purpose or what representation was made to you at that time about the purpose of the Klan, other than the one you stated a while ago. American purposes were stated to you as the purpose of the Klan?
A Preacher Killen told me that this was a very patriotic, political organization and in order that better men and better business men and better citizens, officers, doctors, lawyers, and peace officers belonged to it.
Q And did you relate that information to Frank Herndon?
A I did. . . .