CHARLES JOHNSON called as a witness for and on behalf of Plaintiff, was sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Will you tell the Court and Jury your full name?
A Reverend Charles Johnson.
Q Where do you live?
A. 1625-25th Avenue.
Q In what City?
A Meridian, Mississippi.
Q How long have you lived here?
A Six years.
Q What is your occupation?
A Minister.
Q And what church are you a minister of?
A Church of the Nazarene.
Q Whre is that church located?
A 1606-30th Avenue.
Q Reverend Johnson, did you know Michael Schwerner?
A I did.
Q And when did you know him?
A February, 1964, until his death in June.
Q Did you know him well?
A Yes.
Q And where did you know him, what city?
A Meridian.
Q What was his race?
A White.
Q what were the circumstances of your acquaintance with him?
A He was interested in some of the same things that I was interested in, and we worked together to try to get some of these things come to past.
Q What things were you speaking of?
A Voter registration, better jobs, upgrading of employment and better education in some phases, also police treatment of negroes.
Q And of what organization was he a member of?
A COFO
Q Did COFO have an office Meridian?
A They did.
Q And who was in charge of the office?
A Michael Schwerner.
Q Where was the office located?
A 2505-1/2 5th Street.
Q In what City?
A Meridian.
Q And what type of neighborhood was that office?
A Negro neighborhood.
Q Did you have any occasion to observe what type of work he did while he was in Meridian?
A I did.
Q Briefly would you tell the Court and Jury what that work was?
A Voter registration, the upgrading of jobs for negroes in jobs, and also the police treatment of negroes
Q And who did he do that work?
A As a rule through mass meetings and organizaing in the communities.
Q Did you participate in any of these organizations with him?
A I did.
Q And did you observe how he worked during that period?
A Yes, I worked on committees with him.
Q What kind of committees.
A Committees, various committees, voter registration committees, and to work out and visit stores in reference to hiring of negroes and upgrading their jobs.
Q And were there members of both races in these groups that went around?
A It was a mixed group.
Q How was he usually dressed.
A Overalls, or either blue jeans, with sometimes black soft boots or tennis shoes.
Q Did he have a beard?
A He did.
Q What kind of beard?
A Kinda a goat beard.
Q Where did he live?
A He lived with the people in the neighborhood.
BY THE COURT:
What kind of beard?
BY THE WITNESS:
Goat beard.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q With whom did he live?
A He lived with different families in the negro neighborhood, until he got his own apartment.
Q And was in own apartment in the City of Meridian?
A City of Meridian, in the negro neighborhood.
Q When did you last see him?
A in June.
Q And where was that?
A Here in Meridian.
Q Could you tell me whether or not he worked in other surrounding areas outside the City of Meridian?
A He worked in Neshoba, Clark, and Lauerdale.
Q Could you tell me whether that was in connection with his work as an organizer for COFO?
BY MR. WEIR:
We object to his leading.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I'll let you rephrase that question.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Can you tell me what work he did there?
A He went to these different counties to organize for voter registration, the same kind of work he was doing here in Meridian.
Q Whom did he organize?
A The negro people.
Q That's all.
BY THE COURT:
All right, you may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WEIR:
Q Reverend Johnson, you are a member of the colored race yourself?
A Negro race, yes sir.
Q And did you go to these various meetings yourself with Mr. Michael Schwerner?
A In Lauderdale?
Q Yes.
A. Yes.
Q Did you go to any other county with him?
A No.
Q Did you ever go into Neshoba County with him?
A No.
Q Now, you say you were interested in the same things he was, did you ever see or hear of him advocating the fact that there should not be fighting in Viet Nam?
A No.
Q Did he advocate the burning of draft cards?
A No.
Q What other things did he advocate other than what you have listed and told the jury here?
A These were the things that he advocated that I have told the jury before, these were the basic things that he advocated.
Q Well, he was an atheist wasn't he?
A Was he an atheist?
Q Yes sir.
A I don't know.
Q You mean, well he was a person who did not believe in the presence of God wasn't he?
A I don't know that.
Q Well, you are a Minister of the Gospel aren't you?
A I didn't talk with him on religion . . .
Q You never did go to Cuba?
A No
Q Have you ever been there?
A I haven't ever been there.
Q You never desired to go there.
A Never did.
Q Now did I understand you to say that Mr. Schwerner was like Jesus or did I misunderstand that?
A You misunderstood that.
MY MR. HAUBERG:
We object to Counsel putting in.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I don't think you are entitled to badger this witness so conduct yourself accordingly.
BY MR. WEIR:
I did not so intend, if Your Honor please. I just wanted to make sure about that. Your Honor would you indulge me just a moment, since we have a rule about opposing Counsel.
BY THE COURT:
I understand the rule, just hope you do.
BY MR. WEIR:
Q Now you say that you and Mr. Schwerner upheld for the same thing, , did you all encourage the boycotting of stores?
A We did.
Q What stores did you and Mr. Schwerner encourage the boycotting of?
A Various stores.
Q Here in Meridian?
A Meridian.
Q And outside the city limits out into Lauderdale County?
A In Meridian.
Q Just in the city limits.
A That's right.
Q What about other counties?
A I have no knowledge of any other.
Q You were a member of this COFO organization?
A I was an interested citizen.
Q Was Mr. Schwerner a member of this COFO organization?
A He was.
Q What does that stand for?
A Congress of Federated Organization.
Q What is SNCC?
A Its an---
Q What does that stand for?
A I don't know.
Q Was Mr. Schwerner a member?
A I don't think so.
Q Have you ever been a member?
A No.
Q What is Slink.
A Another abbreviation.
Q What is the by name?
A Snick.
Q And was he a member of that?
A I don't know.
Q Are you?
A No.
Q Was he a member of the NAACP?
A I don't think so.
Q You are aren't you?
A Sure.
Q Big member aren't you?
A That's right.
Q For how long?
A Oh about three or four years.
Q You're proud of it aren't you?
A Yes.
Q Very proud?
A Very.
Q Now, of course, you wouldn't know anything about who may or may not be guilty in this case, were you?
A No.
Q And you wouldn't undertake to tell the Court and jury that you know if any of the people on trial were guilty of anything would you?
A Right.
Q Have you ever been convicted of any crime or paid a fine?
A No, only parking tickets.
Q That's the most serious thing you've been charged with?
A That's correct.
Q Do you have some scars on your head, have you been involved in some kind of fracas?
A Accidents.
Q Why did you advocate the boycotting of businesses here in Meridian, Mississippi?
BY MR. HAUBERG:
We object to that if the Court please, I think he's gone into that sufficiently.
BY THE COURT:
I don't see the relevancy of it, what is the relevancy of it?
BY MR. WEIR:
Well Your Honor please, what we are trying, what is happening, of course, we have these notes passed in and in order to represent the other attorneys fairly I felt I ought to ask that question. I have not asked it in that manner, the reason its not connected I haven't pass in that stage.
BY THE COURT:
I see your reason but I don't see the relevancy of it and if you don't tell me I won't know what the relevancy is.
BY MR. WEIR:
Q Then let's get back to this Mrs. Schwerner. Was he a married man?
A He was.
Q And did his wife stay here most of the time or was she away most of the time?
A She stayed here.
Q Well, did he have some colored person to stay there with him?
A In his apartment?
Q Yes sir.
A I don't know about that.
Q Who was it that worked and stayed there with him?
A I don't know that.
Q Wasn't it some colored woman who stayed there?
A I don't know.
Q Do you know Stokley Carmichael?
A I've heard of him.
Q Do you know him personally?
A No
Q Never have met him?
A Never have.
Q Do you believe in the same prinicipals he believes in?
BY MR. HAUBERG:
We object to that.
BY THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
BY MR. WEIR:
Q Did you and Mr. Schwerner, you said you all advocated the same thing?
A The same thing what?
Q That Stokely Carmichael advocated.
BY MR. HAUBERG:
We object to that, if the Court Please.
BY THE COURT:
I don't see the relevancy of that Counsel, sustain the objection.
BY MR. WEIR:
Q What State are you a notice of?
A Florida.
Q What place in Florida?
A Orlando.
Q And were you born and raised there?
A I was.
Q And then did you move to Virginia, did you say?
A That's right.
Q How long were you in Virginia?
A Four years.
Q And then you came to Mississippi?
A Correct.
Q And while you were in Virginia did you take special education or courses or training in order to further the cause that you testified you are so very interested in?
A Just the Ministry.
Q Well ministry and also these things that you told the prosecutor attorney here about this voting proposition your training and the upgrading etc., did you take special courses and training along those lines?
A I trained for the ministry.
Q Well was that the real purpose that you took the training was to learn these things that you are so interested in and come to Mississippi and advocate them?
A I took my training to help the whole man.
Q Did you ever, uh, did Mr. Schwerner ever advocate that white women should be raped?
BY MR. HAUBERG:
We object to that, if the Court please.
BY THE COURT:
I didn't understand the question.
BY MR. WEIR:
Q I say, you told about some of the things that Mr. Schwerner and yourself advocated, I believe when you first talked with the prosecuting attorney and testified you left off the fact that you advocated boycotting didn't you? But you told me later that you did that too, you remember that don't you?
A [No answer.]
Q Now, let me ask you if you and Mr. Schwerner didn't advocate and try to get young male negroes to sign statements agreeing to rape a white woman once a week during the hot summer of 1964?
BY MR.HAUBERG:
We object to that if the Court please.
BY THE COURT:
I am going to let him answer that.
BY THE WITNESS:
I believe you will have to repeat that sir?
BY MR. WEIR:
Q I ask you if it is not true and I want your answer, that you and Mr. Schwerner didn't try to get young negro males to sign statements that they would rape one white woman a week during the hot summer of 1964 here in Mississippi?
A No, never.
BY THE COURT:
Counsel, you ought to have a good basis for a question like that. It would be highly improper--I hope that you know--to ask such a question without a basis for it. I'm going to look forward to seeing some basis for that question in this record.
BY MR. WEIR:
Your Honor please, it's a note that was passed to me by someone else.
BY THE COURT:
Well, who is the author of that question?
BY MR. WEIR:
I don't know sir.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I want to find out right now who the author of that question is? Which one of you passed that question up?
BY MR. ALFORD:
It was passed to me, Your Honor and I passed it on to him.
BY THE COURT:
Who wrote the question? Whose question is it?
BY MR. ALFORD:
Brother Killen wrote the question, one of the defendants.
BY THE COURT:
One of the defendants wrote the question? All right, I'm going to expect some basis for that question since Counsel has adopted one of the defendant's questions and if there's no basis for it, when get through I'm going to say something about that.
BY MR. WEIR:
Your Honor please--
BY THE COURT:
I'm not going to allow a farce to be made of this trial and everybody might as well get that through their heads including everyone of these defendants right now.
BY MR. WEIR:
Your Honor please, I will be more careful from now on about the questions I ask and I do beg the Court to understand that on this particular occasion I was trying to be diligent in obeying the Court's orders you know.
BY THE COURT:
I don't understand such a question as that, and I don't appeciate it, and I'm going to say so before I get through with the trial of this case. So you can govern yourselves accordingly and you can act just as reckless as you want to in asking questions like that. Go along.
BY MR. WEIR:
Your Honor please, may I confer with associate counsel to see if there are any additional questions that they want to ask?
BY THE COURT:
Yes sir. I'm surprised at a question like that coming from a preacher too, I'm talking about Killen, or whatever his name is . . . .