MINNIE LEE HERRING: called as a witness for and on behalf of Plaintiff, was sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
By MR. OWEN:
Q Would you state your name please?
A Mrs. Minnie Lee Herring, I live in the Neshoba County Jail, 422 Myrtle Street, Philadelphia, Mississippi.
Q What kind of work do you do?
A Well, I practically do it all.
Q What?
A Well I cook and everything, I help my husband.
Q Where?
A In the jail. We have living quarters there in the jail.
Q You operate the jail?
A. Yes.
Q How long have you been doing that?
A Well it will be twelve years the second day of January, this coming January.
Q Were you on duty at the jail on June 21st, 1964?
A Yes sir.
Q Let me hand you exhibit 14, do you recognize that page in that book?
A Yes, I do.
Q Would you tell the Court and Jury what that book is and what that page is?
A Well, this is a jail docket that we have to keep.
Q Who keeps that book?
A Well, my husband and I keep it, we keep it there at the jail.
Q Who makes the entries in that book?
A Well, sometimes he does and sometimes I do.
Q And that is kept in the ordinary course of your operation of the jail?
A Yes sir. Right.
Q On that page, let me ask you this. Did you ever meet a person named Michael Schwerner?
A Yes, I met him. I was there when they brought him in.
Q Did they bring in more than one person?
A Yes, they brought Goodman, Schwerner and Chaney.
Q Do you remember what date they brought them in?
A It was on Sunday afternoon, the 21st of June.
Q What year?
A 1964.
Q About what time did they bring them in?
A Well, it was about 4:00 o'clock.
Q Who brought them in.
A Price.
Q Price
A Cecil Price?
Q Deputy Price?
A Yes,
Q Do you see him here in the courtroom?
A Yes.
Q Would you point him out?
A Sitting by Billy Wayne Posey, my nephew.
Q That is Billy Posey wearing glasses?
A That's right.
Q Did Deputy Price indicate to you why he had brought them to Jiail?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor, if it please the court I object. Now this uh he's asking a question of the witness which is first of all leading, and then calling for a conclusion on the part of the witness by indicating?
By MR. OWEN:
Q Did he tell you?
BY THE COURT:
I'll let him rephrase his question.
By MR. OWEN:
Q Did he tell you why he brought them to jail?
BY MR. PIGFORD:
Your Honor, we object on the grounds it would be hearsay and we object to it on those grounds.
BY THE COURT:
Overruled.
By MR. OWEN:
Q You may answer the question.
A Well he told us to book Chaney for speeding, and the other two were being held for investigation.
Q Did he tell you investigation for what?
A Well, know he didn't.
Q Now did you then put them in jail?
A Yes sir.
Q How about their personal belongings what happened to those.
A Well, they gerneally keep their billfolds and things.
Q Who is they?
A Well the law, if the City brings them to our jail they keep their belongings, and a lot of times we keep them there at the jail.
Q What happened to their bersonal belongings of these three boys.
A Well when Price came back out he had a little box with their belongings in there, each one of them reached in and got their billfolds, and I had their driver's license and they put them in their billfolds.
Q The only thing you had of theirs at the jail was what?
A Their driver's license.
Q How about their car keys?
A I didn't have their car keys.
Q Now, did these boys give you any trouble up in the jail?
A Not a bit in the world.
Q After they were put in jail did you see Cecil Price that afternoon?
A Well, I don't believe, yes I did. He came back by in just a little while and brought in George Rushing, he and Mr. Warren.
Q Mr. who?
A Mr. Warren, Leonard Warren.
Q Who is Mr. Warren?
A Well he's the Justice of the Peace, he had come there to fix out some warrents, and the old nigger had been there so much he just wabbled on in while they fixed out the warrant.
Q Do you remember the name of the negro that was arrested?
A George Rush.
Q And who arrested Rush?
A Cecil Price.
BY MR. BUCKLEY
Your honor I object, I don't see the relevancy of this.
By MR. OWEN:
I'll withdraw the question.
BY THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
By MR. OWEN:
Q Who brought Rush to the Jail?
A Well Cecil was driving the car and so Leonard, he walked to the door of the jail with him.
Q Both of them brought him?
A Yes they did.
Q Now when you make and entry on that, let me ask you this, when they bring somebody to the jail what kind of entry do you make on that docket? . . . .
A Well, we just book them for whatever they are charged with.
Q All right.
A And of course, whenever they get out we mark them out, when they are let out.
Q If you will take that jail docket and go from left to right to the names of Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, do you see their names on that page?. . . .
Q On exhibit 14 if you start from the left side of the page moving right would you indicate to the Court and Jury how you make entries in the jail docket and what they mean?
A Well, when the law brings one in they always tell us what they are charged with. Most of the time they have a warrant and sometimes they just have a ticket so we book these people and whatever they say they are charged with, and if they want their tickets we always give them to them whenever they get ready to get out.
Q Does that book indicate who the arresting officers are?
A Oh, yes sir. . . .
BY THE COURT:
Is the examination of this witness contemplated to be rather long?
By MR. OWEN:
Oh, it'll take another ten minutes.
BY THE COURT:
I'll, I believe we'll take a fifteen minute recess right at this time. I will let the jurors go to their jury room before anyone else leaves courtroom.
(Whereupon Jurors excused from the courtroom)
(Whereupon the Court took a recess at 10:37 A.M. for fifteen minutes)
AFTER RECESS
By MR. OWEN:
Q Mrs. Herring, now what time did you say these people were brought in?
A It was around 4:00 o'clock.
Q Did anyone come with him?
A They didn't anyone come in the jail with him. There was someone out in front of the jail.
Q Who was out in front of the jail?
A Well it was Mr. Pow and Mr. Hughes out in front of the jail.
Q Who are they?
A They are Highway Patrolmen.
Q From where?
A Philadephia, Neshoba County.
Q Now, after you placed them in Jail, did Mr. Price interview them or did anybody interview them?
A No, non one talked to them while they were in jail.
Q Do you recall what time they were released?
A 10:30 at night.
Q Can you tell the Court and Jury who released them?
A Well, Price came into the jail and up in the hall to our quarters at 10:30 and said, "Mr. Herring, Chaney wants to pay off, and he said, we'll let him pay off and we'll release them all." Well, my husband opened the door and he walked around the white boys were in the front cell and the colored by was on the back, so he walked around the bars and asked the colored boy if he wanted to pay offm and Chaney asked him how much was it and he told him it would be twenty dollars. Well, he didn't have the $20.00 on him so he borroed it from Schwerner and paid the fine, and so my husband wrote the receipt and Cecil went back and unlocked the combination and let them out and walked on out in the little hall. He had their belongings in a little box, and I hadc their driver's licence, so each one of them reached in and got their billfolds, and put their driver's license in their billfolds, and my husband gave them the receipt and Price told them, "see how quick you all can get out of Neshoba County," and they thanked him and went on out.
Q If a person is arrested on a ticket and not a warrant, do you have to keep one copy of the ticket?
A Will I tell you now usually when they give tickets like that they usually give the violator a ticket.
Q What about the copies?
A Well, the copies always are left in the book.
Q All the copies?
A Yes sir.
Q Do you keep any copies at the jail house?
A Well, we have a receipt book and we usually give them the top receipt and the yellow one is left in the book.
Q In your book?
A Yes, sir. See here, when you tear the white one out it automatically leaves the yellow one in.
Q Now, that day did you see Cecil Price give either of those boys a ticket?
A No, I didn't.
Q Was there a ticket shown you by any of them?
A No, I suppose he gave it to him when he arrested him.
Q You never saw the ticket?
A No, I didn't see the ticket.
Q Let me ask you one other question. If a person is arrested and givern a speeding ticket, can they make bond and pay you?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
If the Court please, we object to that. There has been no evidence to show that they were tendered or refused a bond.
BY THE COURT:
What's the relevancy of that.
BY MR OWEN:
Well, your Honor, I would like to show the ordinary practices as to how you get out of jail in Neshoba County.
BY THE COURT:
All right, I'll overrule your objection.
By MR. OWEN:
Q Now is it always necessary for the Sheriff or the Deputy Sheriff to be around when a person is released or makes bond.
A No, they are not always around, if it is a little bond they have told us that we would know just as well as they did what to do and for us to go ahead and accept the bond and let them out. They either make bond or pay off one.
Q And it doesn't require the Sheriff's or Deputy Sheriff's presence.
A No, they've told us to always go ahead and accept the bond, you see. Now, if its over a hundred dollar bond we don't accept it.
Q But this was smaller than a hundred dollar bond?
A It would have been.
Q Now, who has the authority to release people whent they are being held for investigation?
A Well, they always come and tell us. We never ask them any questions. We just hold them until they call and tell us to turn them out.
Q What does your entry there on government's exhibit 14 show the reason for their release?
A Well, I just figured they got through with their investigation?
Q What does your book reflect?
A What do you mean, paid out or made bond?
Q What entry did you make?
A Well they just stay until they pay off or make bond.
Q Is that reflected in your book, what did you write for being the reason they were released?
A Well, this is James Chaney, the 21st of June, paid fine.
Q What about the other two?
A Well, I guess they had finished their investigation.
Q What entry did you make there?
A Released after investigation.
Q Now, did Price tell you he had made any investigation?
A Well, they didn't make any at the jail but they have before they brought them in.
Q But did he, how did you know to put that entry in?
A Well, he told us to book Chaney for speeding and to book the other two for investigation.
Q Well, how did you know to put that in after you released them.
A Well, that's what he said.
Q Let me hand you this.
BY THE COURT:
Handle those exhibits for him Mr. Marshal.
By MR. OWEN:
Q Do you recognize this?
A Yes, those are the records on fines that Leonard Warren gave us. He's in the National Guard and he has to be out of town a lot, and a lot of time people want to pay their fines and get out of jail.
Q Fines for what kind of offenses?
A Well, speeding, driving without a tag, driving while intoxicated, public drunk, such as that. It was sticking up over that place there betweenthe jail residence and the jail.
Q Now on those basis, you can release a person from jail if they meet those----
A Well, we have been doing that all these twelve years, when they pay off, or make bond we go ahead and release them because a lot of times we can't get ahold of the law.
Q Thank you, Mrs. Herring.
BY THE COURT:
Any cross examination?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor, we would like to interpose an objection as to the basis between the Justice of the Peace and the Jailer and not the Sheriff and the Jailer, there is nothing to show this is official between the Justice of the Peace and the Jailer.
BY THE COURT:
I'll overrule your objection. You may cross.
BY MR. WEIR:
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q Mrs. Herring, I believe, you say that Leonard Warren is the Justice of the Peace of District One of Neshoba County, Mississippi?
A That's right.
Q And this is true that he's hared to find at times.
A Well, they all are sometimes, sometimes you can't find any of them.
Q Judge Warren is hard to find on Sunday.
A Well Yes.
Q Judge Warren operates anothere kind of business there also?
A Yes.
Q And he goes hunting and fishing quite often.
A I reckon he's like all the rest of them he goes every chance he gets.
Q But he is hard to find at times.
A Well its hard to find any of them sometimes and I guess that was one of the times.
Q Yes sum. Sometimes when they bring in a prisoner you just write the names down on a piece of paper and then later on you make the entry in that docket book there, don't you?
A Well, I tell you a lot of times when the law brings them in they write their names and stuff on a piece of paper.
Q Well have you ever done that?
A Yes, I have. I sure have.
Q How often does that happen Mrs. Herring?
A Well not too often becauses I generally go right on to the books and docket it when they bring them in, so I can keep it straight.
Q Does the law officers write it on a sheet a paper and then you docket it on you books? How often does that happen?
A Well, not too often.
Q Quite often?
A Well, not too often.
Q If the Court please, will you indulge me just a moment?
Mrs. Herring, are you related to me in any way?
A You're my son-in-law.
Q That's all.
BY THE COURT:
I'm going to say to the Counsel for the defendants as officers of this Court, I'm going to say to you that if you think it is absolutely imperative that you ask some questions, I'm going to let you do it under those circumstances.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
By MR. OWEN:
Q Mrs. Herring, you stated on cross examination that at times these people are hard to find, on that Sunday of June the 21st, how many times did you see Cecil Price?
A Well I saw him when he brought George Rush in and then I saw him when he brought them in.
Q Who do you mena by them?
A Well, Schwerner, Goodman & Chaney.
Q Had you seen them before, uh, had you seen him before then?
A I saw him when he brought the boys in.
Q What boys are you referring to?
A Well, Chaney, Schwerner---
BY MR. PIGFORD:
Your Honor, we don't understand who Counsel is asking who she had seen, if it is Mr. Price, Mr. Warren or who?
THE COURT:
Well, I'll let you rephrase your question and be a little bit more specific.
By MR. OWEN:
Q How many times and when did you see Cecil Price that day?
A Well, Ii saw him when he brought those three boys in and I saw him when he came back and brought the nigger in, Goerge Rush.
Q Did you see him later?
A Not until he came back that night about 10:30.
Q Did you see him after that?
A Yes, I saw him. He cam in and brought somebody. Wait, I can't think. Yes, here it is. They came in and brought Richard something, Jim something, I can't say their names, and Jim, no, Will Sullivan.
Q Now, you say they came in, who is they?
A Well Price and Deputy Sheriff Rainey?
Q Who?
A Deputy Rainey, I mean Sheriff Rainey. Le's see now, it was Rainey, Price and Warren, I believe that was all.
Q Now, what time was this?
A Well, it was about ten minutes until twelve. After we locked them up and the docket was on the table and I looked at the clock, and we marked them put on the 21st, of course we got paid for that day and if it had been five minutes after midnight we would have got that day on there.
BY THE COURT:
Counsel, that doesn't sound to me like it is a rebuttal.
(Mr Owen sat down)