DELMAR DENNIS, called as a witness for and on behalf of Plaintiff, was sworn and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Would you tell the Court and jury your full name?
A Delmar Dennis.
Q Where do you live?
A 3228-46th Street, Meridian.
Q What is your occupation?
A I'm a minister. . . .
Q How long have you lived in Mississippi?
A All of my life.
Q Where were you raised?
A I was raised in Scott County, Mississippi.
Q How long have you been, excuse me, how old are you?
A 27.
Q How long have you been a minister?
A Since I was 14. 13 years sir.
Q What churches have you held or had in State of Mississippi?
A I have served churches in the Southern Baptist Denomination, the Methodist and the Southern Methodist.
Q And where did you have those churches?
A In Scott County, Leake County, Jasper County, Neshoba County and Lauderdale County.
Q When were you a minister in Neshoba County?
A I was there for about 6 months in 1960.
Q What is your present church?
A I'm not pastoring a church at the present time.
Q What was the last church that you were pastor of?
A The First Southern Methodist Church in Meridian.
Q When were you pastor of that church?
A I was pastor of that church on October 7 of 64 so it has been a little less than 3 years.
Q Do you any writing?
A Yes, some.
Q And this is in connection with your work?
A Yes.
Q Are you a member of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A I have been up to the present time, yes sir.
Q When did you join the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A In March of 1964.
Q And where did you join?
A Joined at the Cash Salvage Store on 65th Avenue in Meridian.
Q And can you look around the courtroom on the inside of the rail and tell me whether anyone sitting there was present at that meeting of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan when you joined?
A Edgar Ray Killen was present, Wayne Roberts, Frank Herndon.
Q Anyone else?
A Pete Harris.
Q Can you identify those for the Court by counting down.
THE COURT:
Who was the last one?
THE WITNESS:
Pete Harris.
THE COURT:
Thank you.
THE WITNESS:
A The first person on the end Wayne Roberts, the fifth is Pete Harris, the seventh is Edgar Ray Killen and Frank Herndon is over here in his pajamas.
Q Who had charge of the meeting?
A Edgar Ray Killen.
BY THE COURT
Who is Pete Harris?
BY THE WITNESS:
James Harris, I believe.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Can you tell me the purpose of that first meeting of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Yes, Mr. Killen explained, first of all what a fine organization that it was that it stood for christianity and American constitution and that it was for the purpose of segregation and preservation of the white race.
Q Was anything else said by Mr. Killen at that meeting?
A Quite a bit was said by Mr. Killen at that meeting and at other meetings.
Q I'm just asking you about this meeting?
A Mr. Killen administered the oath to those that wished to join and explained other things.
Q Did you join?
A I did.
Q Did you get a number?
A I did.
Q What was your number?
A Number thirty-two.
Q Did Mr. Killen explain the Klan action?
A After the swearing in ceremony he explained that it was an organization of action no Boy Scout group, that we were here to do business.
Q Did he explain what he meant by that?
A He said there would be things that the Klan would need to do and would do and among those would be the burning crosses, people would need to be beaten and occasionally there would have to be elimination.
Q What did he mean by elimination?
A He meant killing a person.
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor may it please the Court I'm going to object to this testimony, telling what someone had mentioned.
BY THE COURT
He said he said it so I'll overrule your objection.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Did he explain how various types of action would be approved?
BY MR. WEIR:
Now if Your Honor please we object to various actions and ask the Court to ask him to define it just as to the action in this case.
BY THE COURT
Well I assume that's what his question calls for.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Did he say how the action was described in your answer to my last question?
BY MR. WEIR:
And I object again if Your Honor please.
BY THE COURT
Overruled.
BY MR. WEIR:
May I have a continuing objection.
BY THE COURT
Yes and it stands overruled.
BY THE WITNESS:
A He explained that any project that was carried out by the Klan had to be approved by the Klan, that no person was to do anything on their own and if they did, they would not receive any money or any help whatsoever from the Klan.
Q Did he say who would approve these projects?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor please the Court I would object to the testimony of this witness will be used against anyone until and unless it is shown to be a part of this, uh, as they are alleged, a conspiracy or a plot.
BY THE COURT
I understand that's what he's trying to prove so I'll overrule your objection Counsel.
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
If it please the Court we object to his leading type questions.
BY THE COURT
Overruled. Let's get along gentlemen, let's don't give rise to so many frivolous type objections.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Would you answer?
A Could you repeat the question please?
Q Can you explain the type of approval for the various types of action of the Klan procedure which you have discussed?
A Yes, a person would report to the local Klavern and the next meeting after he decided that certain things should be done it would be voted on by the group and if approved then it would be carried out by those who volunteered to carry out and this included cross burnings and occasional beatings, but the elimination was reserved by the ruling of the State Organization and after approval a local Klavern it had to be approved by the state.
Q Now after the approval, I'll withdraw that. Did you attend any subsequent meetings of the Klan prior to June 21, 1964?
A I did.
Q Where did yo attend those meetings.
A Some of them were held at the cash salvage store, some of them were held at Harrison Box House, some of them were in the trailer at Frank Herndon. . . .
Q When were the meetings ordinarily held?
A The first meetings were usually held on a Tuesday or Thursday night, but they rotated the night as well as the place of meetings.?
Q Were they regular weekly meetings?
A They were weekly meetings, yes sir..
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
If it please the Court he stated one or more meetings in April and we would like for him to testify as to the date.
BY THE COURT
I would expect that you would find that out on cross examination Counsel.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Who was the leader of the meetings during the April date 1964 at Meridian?
A Edgar Ray Killen was the leader of the Kleagle for the first few weeks as we were still organizing and after that the officers of the local Klavern were in charge.
Q Now, did you know a man named Mickey Schwerner?
A I did not know him.
Q Did you know of him?
A Yes sir.
Q Did you ever hear any discussion of Mickey Schwerner at Klan meetings prior to June 21, 1964?
A Yes sir there were several discussions about him.
Q Now could you fix the time and the place of those several meetings and tell us who was present at the meetings, the dates of the first meeting and if there were others?
A Sometimes in early April 1964 at Cash Salvage Store. After Mr. Killen had explained the approval of elimination process it was suggested by someone in the meeting.
Q Let me ask you if you could tell us those who were in the meeting?
A Those that I have already identified. Would you name those again for us?
A Wayne Roberts, Pete Harris, Edgar Ray Killen, Frank Herndon, B.L. Akin.
Q Now what was said?
A It was explain that it was necessary for a project to be approved at which time somebody in the group, I do not remember who it was or if it was one of the defendants, said that he believed we should vote on the elimination of "Goatee."
Q And who was Goatee?
A Goatee was Michael Schwerner. . . .
Q What if anything was said by Preacher Killen.
A He said that we were not yet organized in a Klavern and it would not be necessary for a local Klavern to approve that project that it had already been approved by the State Officers of the Klan and had been made a part of their program and it would be taken care of.
Q Now was Mickey Schwerner discussed at a subsequent meeting prior to June 21, 1964?
A He was.
Q And where was that meeting held?
A There was a meeting in early May held at Frank Herndon's trailer, at that time parked behind the Longhorn.
Q What is the Longhorn?
A The Longhorn is a drive in restaurant.
Q And did any of the defendants work there?
A Frank Herndon was running the Longhorn at that time.
Q And who was present at this meeting?
A Frank Herndon was running the Longhorn at that time.
Q And who was present at this meeting?
A Frank Herndon and Pete Harris.
Q And what was said?
A It was said that even though the State had approved the elimination of Schwerner that nothing had been done about it and they were wondering if anything was going to be done about it or who had volunteered to take care of the job.
Q Now when was the third time or was there another time that Mickey Schwerner was discussed?
A This is prior to June 21st.
Q June 21st
A It was believed on June 16th that he was in Neshoba County. It was mentioned there that he might be present in the Mount Zion Church.
Q And where was that meeting?
A That meeting was held in an abandoned or vacant gym in Neshoba County.
Q Now, referring to, strike that. On the 16th of June tell us about that meeting at the Bloom School?
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
We object. He didn't name the school, Your Honor. He's putting words in his mouth.
BY THE COURT
Rephrase your question.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Tell us about this meeting that was held in Neshoba County, just tell us how you got there, who you went with among the defendants, who you saw them you got there among the defendants.
A Frank Herndon called and told me that we had been invited to a visit in a meeting of the Neshoba Klavern and for us to meet at the Longhorn early that afternoon and go in as few a cars as possible and so we started to meet there oh before sundown that day and I went in a car, there were five of us in that car, was Wayne Roberts is the only one who is a defendant in this case.
Q There were other people in the car?
A There were.
Q And did another car go?
A Mr. B.L. Akin took a car in which there were other people.
Q And were any other of the defendants in Mr. Akin's car if you know?
A I don't ow that they went in this car.
Q And when you got to, will you just tell in your own words what happened that night?
A The meeting was called to order by Mr. Killen.
Q Let me ask you where did you go first?
A We went first to the H & H Restaurant which in on Highway 19 just as we are going into Philadelphia.
Q And what happened there?
A We met with some people from Neshoba County. Edgar Ray Killen is the only one that I recall that I knew and we had a cup of coffee and then drove out to the gym.
Q And where was the gym.
A It was out Highway 16 east for a few miles and then turned south.
Q And how far did you go south, if you recall?
A I don't recall but it was only a little ways after we turned off of Highway 16.
Q Do you know the name of the place you went to?
A No sir.
Q Can you describe it?
A It was a gym that had once been part of a school system there was consolidated, no longer in use, it was not lighted except by the lights that were provided at the meeting.
Q And what time of day or night was it?
A Well, by this time it was between eight and nine o'clock and dark.
Q Did you go inside the gym?
A Yes sir.
Q About how many people were present?
A I would say more than 75.
Q And can you tell me if any of the other defendants were present?
A Mr. Akin was there and Pete Harris and Frank Herndon.
Q I don't recall anybody else. Uh, let's see. Mr. Killen of course was there and Hop Barnette was there.
Q Anybody else from Meridian?
A I don't recall anybody else from Meridian that's a defendant.
Q And would you pick our Mr. Hop Barnette for the Court and Jury?
A He's sitting by Mr. Akin. He's the fourth one down from the left over here.
Q Who is he sitting next to on the other side?
A Sam Bowers.
Q Now, what did Mr. Killen say at that meeting?
A Well, they called the meeting to order and started to make some routine announcements and was interrupted shortly after the meeting?
Q And who interrupted him?
A Hop Barnette.
Q And what did Hop Barnette Say?
A He said that on the way over to the meeting that he had passed the Mount Zion Church and there was a meeting being held and there must be an important meeting because the church wa heavily guarded and he wanted to present what he had found to the group and see what they wanted to do about it.
Q And what was said then?
A Edgar Ray Killen asked if the group thought that anything should be done about it and some person in the group suggested that there probably were civil rights workers in the church or it would not have been so heavily guarded and it was agreed that something would be done---
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
We object to what someone said unless he's a member of one of these defendants.
BY THE COURT
Yes. I sustain the objection.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q What was said in the presence of the defendants that you have named?
A Yes sir.
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
Move to exclude that, Your Honor, and ask the jury to disregard it.
BY THE COURT
I will overrule it as to those persons who are defendants in this case who were present. Otherwise I will sustain.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Then what happened?
A They asked for volunteers top go out to the church. . . .
Q Who left the church among the defendants?
A Wayne Roberts is the only one of the defendants that I definitely know left the place.
Q Any of the people from Neshoba County?
A Mr. Barnette left with the group and Billy Wayne Posey from Philadelphia also went with the group.
Q And do you see Billy Wayne Posey in the court room?
A Yes, he's the one, two, three, the fifth person from my left in the row.
Q Can you tell me whether the men that left were armed?
A They were armed.
Q How long were they gone?
A Sir, I wouldn't know exactly but I would say between 45 minutes and an hour.
Q Did they come back?
A They did.
Q And did they again assemble in the abandoned, uh, gym?
A Yes sir. . . .
Q And what, if anything, was said then in the presence of the defendants that you have named?
A A report was given to what took place at the church.
Q And who gave the report?
A Billy Birdsong from Meridian.
Q And what did he say?. . . .
A He said that the group from Meridian was guarding one of the exits from the church and that all of the negroes who came out of the church and left by way of exit guarded by the Meridian group were beaten and that it was his understanding that those who left by way of the exit guarded by Neshoba County men---
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
We object, Your Honor, to his understanding. This is the worst of hearsay.
BY THE COURT
He is making a report and I am saying that that report is not evidence or proof of anything that the report said happened, but I am letting it in for the purpose of showing the report and what it was. Go ahead.
BY THE WITNESS:
And he, Billy Birdsong who was making the report, object to the fact that those guarding the exits from Neshoba County had not beaten anyone who came out that way and he stated very heatedly that he disapproved of this, that he didn't like it at all, he thought that they should have been beaten.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q What, if anything, was said by anyone else?
A Billy Wayne Posey said it was his understanding when they left the gym to go to the church they were to get anybody there that was white and that no white person came out the exit he was guarding, and therefore, no one was beaten.
Q Did you observe anything about any of the defendants that night that they came back from the church to the meeting?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
We object Your Honor, he's just asking him for anything.
BY THE COURT
Yes, I think you had better be a LITTLE more specific.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Did you notice anything, or what if anything did you notice about any of the defendants that came back that went up there with you from Meridian?
A Wayne Roberts had blood on his hands, or knuckles and he told me he got this when he was beating a nigger.
Q What did you do then?
A Well, shortly after the report it was agreed that we had better leave the building so the meeting broke up.
Q What did you do then?
A Well, shortly after the report it was agreed that we had better leave the building so the meeting broke up.
Q What did you do then?
A I got in the car in Birdsong and came back to Meridian and--
Q Who else was in the car?
A B.C. Lyles, Wayne Roberts and Dick Warner.
Q Was anything said about what happened out at the church in Mr. Robert's presence on the way home?
A Yes.
Q What was that?
A Birdsong went back through the speech again he had made in the gym and expressed his disapproval of the way it was handled at the other exit and told those of us that were in the car that they had certainly taken care of the ones that came out the exit where they were, that they had taken care of theirs.
Q What did Wayne Roberts say?
A He agreed that they were well beaten and well stomped. He said there was one exception to what Birdsong had said that one old negro woman wasn't beaten.
Q Now do you know Sheriff Rainey?
A I do.
Q When did you first know him?
A I first knew him early in the summer of 1963.
Q And do you know Cecil Price?
A I do.
Q Can you pick them out here in the courtroom and tell me where they are sitting?
A Mr. Rainey is second from the left, and Mr. Price is sixth from the right, right there.
Q And do you know whether or not they are members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A I knew then as members.
Q Can you tell me where they were members prior to June 21, 1964?
A Yes sir, they were.
Q Can you tell me how you know they were members?
A I first was told that they were members and then I talked with them about Klan business, in Philadelphia. . . .
Q Can you tell us when you talked to either Deputy Price or Sheriff Rainey?
A My brother was living in Philadelphia at the time and I was there to visit him and this is where I first met Mr. Rainey and I dropped by and visited with him several times while I was in Philadelphia.
Q Was this prior to June 21st?
A A few times prior to June 21st, yes sir.
Q Now, have you furnished information to the Federal Bureau of Investigation about activities of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A I have.
Q And when did you first start furnishing this information to the F.B.I.
A In November of 1964.
Q And have you been paid anything for this information?
A I have.
Q And how long a period of time have you furnished information?
A Its almost three years, since November, 1964.
Q And how were you paid?
A I was paid on the basis of expenses incurred and information obtained.
Q Do you know about how much you've been paid?
A Approximately five thousand dollars a year.
Q And have you continued to furnish information to the Bureau up to the present time?
A I have.
Q Do you know any of the other defendants as members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Sir, I believe I've named those that I know are members of the White Knights.
Q Now after the June 21st, 1964, did you have any I'll withdraw that question. Did you ever hod any office of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
A Yes sir.
Q And what office did you hold?
A I was first Chaplain of the local Klavern and later Province Titan.
BY THE COURT
Province what?
BY THE WITNESS:
Titan. T I T A N.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q What is the Province Titan.
A It's the Administrative Office that represents the Imperial Wizard.
Q And who is the Imperial Wizard?
A Sam Holloway Bowers.
Q And when did you become the Titan of a province.
A The latter part of November in 1964.
Q And what province was that?
A It included Lauderdale County, Clarke County, Newton, Leake, Neshoba and Kemper Counties.
Q And did you, what were your functions as the Titan?
A I represented the Imperial Wizard in Administrative matters.
Q Did you see the Imperial Wizard from time to time?
BY MR. BUCKLEY:
Your Honor it it please the Court I object to this as having to do with anything about this alleged conspiracy as it happened after June 21st, 1964.
BY THE COURT
I'll overrule your objection. I'm not sure you and I heard the same question. Go along.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q You may answer.
A What was the question, sir?
Q The question was did you see the Imperial Wizard Sam Bowers frequently?
A I did. I saw him many times.
Q Now, did you have any conversation with Cecil Price about the civil rights workers----
BY MR. WEIR:
We object.
BY THE COURT
Counsel, let him finish his question. You don't even know what he's fixing to say.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q ---after June 21st, 1964.
BY THE COURT
Now, do you wish to be heard on your objection?
BY MR. WEIR:
Yes sir, Your Honor please, we object to the question as being irrelevant.
BY THE COURT
Overruled.
BY THE WITNESS:
A Yes sir.
Q Can you tell me where that conversation took place?
A I stopped by the courthouse on one occasion and mentioned it briefly to him and I stopped by on the 24th of December of 64 and met with him in this Southern Methodist Church.
Q In what city?
A In Philadelphia.
Q Was anyone else present?
A Not when I was talking to him, my brother was present and we asked him to step outside while we talked.
Q What if anything was said about Cecil Price about the three civil rights workers being killed.
A He said the government know more about the case than he thought they did and he had concluded that Jorden was the man that was giving the information to the Bureau.
Q Did he say why?
A Yes, he said it was Jorden because Jorden was the only person who could have seen him hit Chaney the night the three men were killed.
BY MR. WEIR:
We object and move the Court to grant us a mistrial.
BY THE COURT
Overruled.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q Now did you have any conversations with Frank Herndon after the civil rights workers were missing?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me where the conversation or the conversations took place?
A They took place in the restaurant he was operating.
Q Can you tell me when they took place?
A Not exactly sir, it was shortly after the bodies were found, that he discussed the case with me.
Q What did he say, was anyone else present?
A No sir.
Q What did Frank Herndon say?
A Frank said he was being accused of being for that but that he was not. He said he had witnesses who would say he was at work the night the men were killed.
Q Now, did you have any conversation with Sam Bowers about the missing civil rights workers?
A Yes.
Q And, uh, did you, can you tell us where those conversations took place?
A They took place in or near Pachuta, Mississippi.
Q And when did they take place, when did the first conversation take place?
A The first conversation was very shortly after the bodies were found.
Q Was anyone else present?
A No.
Q What did Sam Bowers say?
A He said that Judge Cox would probably make them take those bodies back and put them where they got them, that they had found the bodies on an illegal search warrant.
Q Did you have any other conversation with him?
A I did. On another occasion shortly after that meeting he said that he was pleased with that job that it was the first time that Christians had planned and carried the execution of Jews.
Q Did you ever have any kind of a code method of communication with Sam Bowers?
A We used the code name "Aunt Mary's" for our meeting place and he would call my home and identify himself by an alias, usually a Ralph Simmons or a Ralph Phillips or Mr. Sinclair and ask me to meet him at Aunt Mary's and Aunt Mary was between our two cities at Pachuta, Mississippi.
Q Did you have any other kind of code between you and Sam Bowers?
A We talked in terms of the logging operation as regarding the Klan itself.
Q Did you have any code word that referred to the missing civil rights case.
A This was the big logging operation.
Q And did you have any kind of a code for---
BY MR. HENDRICKS:
We object, Your Honor, this is leading. He can ask him something but he can't tell him.
BY THE COURT
I think that's what he's asking him, overruled.
BY MR. DOAR:
Just tell me---
BY THE COURT
Excuse me, Mr. Doar, what did you say the last code for the last operation was called?
BY THE WITNESS:
The big logging operation.
BY MR. DOAR:
Q What other code words did you have?
A Truck drivers represented local officers in the Klan, the local Klavern, our own scalers, we referred to our scalers as our investigators, those that were gathering information for the KBI, the Klan Bureau of Investigation.
Q Did you have any other words? Did you have any words for the defendants involved in this case?
A The, I don't recall, no sir, I don't remember any specific names that were given to those.
Q I am handing you a one page document, do you recognize that?
A Yes sir.
Q What is that document?
A It's a letter from Sam Bowers?
Q How is it signed?
A It's signed, Yours truly, Willoughby Snead.
Q What is, who does that refer to?
A Sam Bowers.
Q And who is the letter addressed to?
A Mr. Dennis.
Q And what is the date of the letter?
A January 6th, 1965. . . .