Witnesses for the Managers: Burt Van Horn; James Moorhead; Samuel Wilkeson; George Karsner
Witness for the President: Lorenzo Thomas
Hon. Burt VAN HORN sworn in and examined.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER
Question. Will you state whether you were present at the War Department when Major General Lorenzo Thomas, Adjutant General of the United States, was there to make demand for the office, property, books, and records?
Answer. I was
Question. When was it?
Answer. It was on Saturday, the 22nd of February, 1868, I believe.
Question. About what time of the day?
Answer. Perhaps a few minutes after eleven o'clock.
Question. Who were present?
Answer. General Charles H. Van Wyck, of New York; General G.M. Dodge, of Iowa; Hon. Freeman Clarke, of New York; Hon. J.K. Moorhead, of Pennsylvania; Hon. Columbus Delano, of Ohio; Hon. W.D. Kelley, of Pennsylvania; Hon. Thomas W. Ferry, of Michigan, and myself. The Secretary of War, Mr. Stanton, and his son were also present.
Question. Please state what took place.
Answer. The gentlemen mentioned and myself were in the office the Secretary of War usually occupies holding conversation; General Thomas came in; I saw him coming from the President's; he came into the building and came up stairs, and came into the Secretary's room first; he said, "Good Morning, Mr. Secretary and good morning gentlemen;" and the Secretary replied "Good morning," and I believe we all did; then began this conversation as follows: [Referring to a printed document.] "I am Secretary of War ad interim and am ordered by the President of the United States to take charge of the office;" Mr. Stanton then replied, "I order you to repair to your room and exercise your functions as Adjutant General of the Army;" Mr. Thomas replied to this, "I am Secretary of War ad interim, and I shall not obey your orders; but I shall obey the orders of the President, who has ordered me to take charge of the War Office;" Nr. Stanton replied to this as follows. "As Secretary of War I order you to repair to your place as Adjutant General;" Mr. Thomas replied, "I shall not do so;" Mr. Stanton then said in reply, "Then you may stand there if you please," pointing to Mr. Thomas, "but you cannot act as Secretary of War; if you do, you do so at your peril;" Mr. Thomas replied to this, "I shall act as Secretary of War;" this was the conversation, I may say, in the Secretary's room.
Question. What happened then?
Answer. After that they went to the room of General Schriver, which is just across the hall, opposite the Secretary's room.
Question. Who went first?
Answer. I think, if I remember aright, that General Thomas went first, and was holding some conversation with General Schriver, which I did not hear. He was followed by Mr. Stanton, By General Moorhead, by General Ferry, and then by myself. Some little conversation was had there, which I did not hear; but after I got into the room, which was but a moment after they went in, however, Mr. Stanton addressed Mr. Thomas as follows, which I concluded was the summing up of the conversation had before---
Mr. CURTIS. No matter about that.
The WITNESS Mr. Stanton then said, "Then you claim to be here as Secretary of War and refuse to obey my orders?" Mr. Thomas said, "I do sir; I shall require the mails of the War Department to be delivered to me, and shall transact all the business of the War Department to be delivered to me, and shall transact all the business of the War Department." That is the substance of the conversation which I heard, and, in fact, the conversation as I heard it entirely.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. Did you make any memorandum of it afterward?
Answer. I made it at the time. I had my memorandum in my hand. When the conversation began I had paper and pencil and wrote it down as the conversation occurred and after the conversation ended I drew it up from my pencil sketches in writing immediately in the office in the presence of the gentlemen who heard it.
Question. What was done after that? Where did Thomas go?
Answer. It was then after eleven o'clock, and my duties and the duties of the rest of us called us here to the House, and I left General Thomas in the room of General Schriver.
Cross-examined by Mr. STANBERY:
Question. Will you please state what was your business in the War Department on that morning?
Answer. Well, sir, I went there that morning, I suppose, as other gentlemen did; at least, I went there for the purpose of visiting the Secretary. I had no special public business.
Question. Was there no object in the visit, except merely to see him?
Answer. Yes, sir: I had an object. The times were rather exciting at that moment, and I went, as much as anything else, to talk with the Secretary, to confer with im about public affairs.
Question. Public affairs generally?
Answer. No, not public business particularly.
Question. What public affairs were the object of the conference?
Answer. Well, sir, the matter of the removal of Mr. Stanton. I felt an interest in that matter, and of course was talking with him upon that subject . . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Question. When you arrived at his room what was the hour?
Answer. It was a little before eleven o'clock.
Question. These other gentlemen whom you have mentioned?
Answer. Not all of them.
Question. Who were there when you arrived?
Answer. I think General Moorhead was there for one; I think Mr. Ferry was there; I think Mr. Delano was there. Two or three others came in after I got there.
Question. Do you know what their business was in the office that morning.
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Did they state any business?
Answer. No, sir; they stated no business to me.
Question. All being there, the next thing was that General Thomas came into the room?
Answer. I appeared to be ready. I had a large white envelope in my pocket, and I had a pencil also in my pocket; and when the conversation began it seemed to me that it might be well to note what was said.
Question. Are you in the habit, generally, in conversations of that kind, of making memoranda of what is said?
Answer. I do not know that I am. unless I deem it important to do so.
Question. Did any one request you take memoranda?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. It was on your own motion?
Answer. On by own responsibility, supposing I had I perfect right to do so.
Question. Undoubtedly . . . .
* * * * * * * * *
Question. How long after General Thomas had left the office was it that the Secretary of War followed him?
Answer. But a moment or two; perhaps two minutes.
Question. Did he state, when he left, what was his object?
Answer. I do not recollect that the Secretary stated anything. General Thomas was in the room talking.
Question. Did he request any gentlemen to go along with him?
Answer. Not that I am aware of.
Question. Did you go upon your own motion, or by agreement?
Answer. I went upon my own motion.
Question. All that were there did not go?
Answer. I do not think they all went in. I think they did not all go in at that time The two gentlemen named, I know went in before me.
Question. How long after the Secretary went did you go.?
Answer. Perhaps it was a minute. It was very soon. I followed the other two gentlemen very soon.
Question. What had taken place between the Secretary and General Thomas before you arrived in the room, or had anything?
Answer. I cannot say. They had some conversation; I cannot say what was said.
Question. As you have given the conversation in your notes, it would seem as if it then began after you first got in?
Answer. The conversation I have given began after I got in. As I said before, I heard some talking; but I do not know what was said.
Question. You mean you heard some talking before you got in there?
Answer. Certainly.
Question. Whose voices?
Answer. But what that was you do not know?
Question. I do not.
Answer. Then the conversation followed which you have detailed?
Question. Certainly. The first I heard when I went in was the questions of Mr. Stanton. which I have stated, and the answer of General Thomas. . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Re-examined by Mr. Manager BUTLER.
Question. You said, if I understood you, that there was a single remark of Thomas that you did not write down, that now occurred to you, in answer to the counsel for the President; what was that remark?
Answer. I said that in answer to his question whether I had sworn to all that he did say. I recollect now General Thomas saying he did not wish any "on pleasantness." I did not think it necessary to put that in my record.
Question. Did he emphasize it in that "on pleasantness?"
Answer. The gentlemen hear it, and it was spoken of afterward, but I did not think it was anything pertaining this to this question and perhaps some other little words were said now and then that I did not amount to anything.
Question. I must still ask you to give the Senate with a little more distinctness whether it was the remark, saying, "I do not want any unpleasantness between us," or was it the use of what has almost become a technical term, that "there shall not be any onpleasantness?"
Answer. Well, sir, I can only state what General Thomas said.
Question. The emphasis is something.
Answer. "onpleasantness" was the expression used. . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Hon. James K. MOORHEAD sworn and examined.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. I believe you are a member of the House of Representatives?
Answer. I am.
Question. We have learned from the testimony of the last witness that you were present at Mr. Secretary Stanton's office when General Thomas came in there to make some demand; will you state now, in your own way, as well as you can, what took place there, assisting your memory, if you have any memorandum,. as you please?
Answer. I will, sir. I was present at the War Department on Saturday morning, the 22nd of February, I believe, and I understood that General Thomas was to be there to take possession of the Department that morning. I went from my boarding-house, which is Mrs. Carter's on the hill; I went to the War Department in company with Dr. Burleigh, who boarded there, a friend of Mr. Johnson's who told me he had had a conversation with General Thomas the night before---
Mr. CURTIS. That is not material.
The WITNESS. I was giving the reason why I went there. I was there, and General Thomas came in. The testimony of Mr. Van Horn is correct as to what passed. I did not take any memorandum of the early part of the conversation; but I would corroborate his statement---
Mr. CURTIS. That we object to.
Mr. STANBERY. That will not do.
The WITNESS, (continuing.) Until the point at which he said General Thomas went across to General Schriver's room. He did go there; he was followed by Mr. Stanton, and Mr. Stanton asked me to go over there. After they got there Mr. Stanton put a direct question to General Thomas, and asked me to remember it. He said, "General Moorhead, I want you to take notice of this and of the answer;" and that induced me to make a memorandum of it, which I think I have among my papers now. [The witness proceeded to search his papers.] It is very brief, and was made roughly, but so I thought I could understand and know what it meant myself, and I can explain it to any person. [Reading.] Mr. Stanton said, "General Thomas, you claim to be here as Secretary of War, and refuse to obey my orders?" After that had passed I walked to the door leading into the hall and I was called back, or from what I heard my attention was attracted so that I returned. Mr. Stanton then said, "General Thomas requires the mails of the Department to be delivered to him." General Thomas said: "I require the mails of the Department to be delivered to me, and I will transact the business of the office." I had not heard General Thomas say this entirely and clearly, but Mr. Stanton repeated it in this way, and said: "General Thomas says 'I require the mails of the Department to be delivered to me, and I will transact the business of this office.'" I asked General Thomas if he had made use of those words. I asked him if he had stated this; and he assented, and added: "You may make it as full as you please." That is all the memoranda I made, and I made that at the time and place. . . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Cross-examined by Mr. STANBERY
Question. How long had you been at the office before General Thomas came in?
Answer. I think about half an hour.
Question. Did you see him coming?
Answer. Yes, sir; I saw him coming. The windows opened out toward the White House, and it was announced by some person near the window that General Thomas was coming; and I, with some others, got up and looked out of the window and saw him coming along the walk, and we expected somewhat of a scene then.
Question. When he came in, did he come in attended, or was he alone?
Answer. He was alone.
Question. Was he armed in any way?
Answer. I did not notice any arms.
Question. Side arms or others?
Answer. I did not notice anything except what the Almighty had given him.
Question. Now, state just what took place and what was said after he came in, according to your own recollections?
Answer. I think I have stated it about as well as I can. When he came in he passed the compliments, "Good morning, Mr. Secretary;" and "Good morning, gentlemen;" and I think Mr. Stanton asked him if he had any business with him.
Question. Did Mr. Stanton return his salute?
Answer. Yes, sir, I think so.
Question. Was Mr. Stanton sitting or standing?
Answer. During the time I was there he was doing both; I cannot tell exactly what he was doing at the time General Thomas spoke to him, but he was down and up and walking around, sometimes sitting, sometimes standing.
Question. Did he ask the General to take a seat?
Answer. I think not, sir.
Question. Did he take a seat?
Answer. No, sir: he did not; he did not in that room. I think he took a seat when he went into General Schriver's room.
Question. But he neither took a seat, not, as you recollect, was asked to take a seat?
Answer. Not that I recollect.
Question. After these good mornings passed what was the next thing?
Answer. General Thomas said that he was there as Secretary of War ad interim; he was appointed by the President, and came to take possession.
Question. Was there nothing said before that?
Answer. Not to my recollection. I took no memorandum of anything before that, and before what I have stated already.
Question. Did I not understand you to say that Mr. Stanton, when he came in and the salutes were passed, asked him what business he had with him?
Answer. Yes sir; and in reply to that he said was I have stated. I did not know you wished me to repeat what I had stated. I stated that.
Question. In reply to that question of Mr. Stanton, what did Mr. Thomas say?
Answer. He said that he was there as Secretary of War ad interim, to take possession of the office. Mr. Stanton told him: "General Thomas, I am Secretary of War; you are the Adjutant General; I order you to your room, sir."
Question. He ordered him to his room?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. What was the reply?
Answer. The reply was that he would not obey the order; that he (Thomas) was Secretary of War ad interim.
Question. What followed that?
Answer. I do not know that there was anything further . . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Question. What was the conversation, significant or not, that took place between Mr. Stanton and General Thomas after you got into that room?
Answer. I cannot recite it, because, as I told you, I did not take a memorandum of it, and it ws not important enough to be impressed on my mind. I do not recollect.
Question. But you have an impression that there was some?
Answer. I think there was some---perhaps joking or something of that kind. They appeared to be in pretty good humor with each other.
Question. That is, the parties did not seem to be in any passion at all?
Answer. Not hostile.
Question. But in good humor?
Answer. Yes sir.
Question. Joking?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Do you recollect any of the jokes that passed?
Answer. No, sir. . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Question. Do you recollect any observation on the part of General Thomas to the effect on the part of General Thomas to the effect that he wished no unpleasantness?
Answer. I do not think I recollect his using that term.
Question. Anything like it?
Answer. No, sir; I do not.
Question. Did there appear to be any unpleasantness?
Answer. There did not; General Thomas wanted to get in, I thought, and Mr. Stanton did not want to go out.
Question. But there was nothing offensive on either side?
Answer. There was nothing very belligerent on either side.
Question. Was there any joking in Mr. Stanton's room as well as in Schriver's room?
Answer. No sir.
Question. Any occasion for a laugh?
Answer. It was more stern in Mr. Stanton's room, as he once or twice ordered General Thomas to go into his room as a subordinate.
Question. That was the only thing that looked like sternness?
Answer. That was rather stern, I thought.
Re-examined by Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. The counsel for the President asked you if General Thomas was armed on that occasion: will you allow me to ake if on that occasion he was masked?
Answer. He was not, sir.
Samuel WILKESON sworn and examined.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. Do you know Lorenzo Thomas Adjutant General of the United States Army?
Answer. I do.
Question. How long have you known him?
Answer. Between six and seven years.
Question. Have you had any conversation with him relative to the change in the War Department? If so, state as near as you can when it was and what it was in relation to that change.
Answer. I had a conversation with him respecting that change on the 21st day of February.
Question. What time in the day?
Answer. Between one o'clock and two o'clock in the afternoon.
Question. Where?
Answer. At the War Department
Question. State what took place at that interview? . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
The WITNESS: I asked him to tell me what had occurred that morning between him and the Secretary of War in his endeavor to to take possession of the War Department. He hesitated to do so till I told him that the town was filled with rumors of the change that had been made, of the removal of Mr. Stanton and the appointment of himself. He then said that since the affair had become public he felt relieved to speak to me with freedom about it. He drew from his pocket a copy, or rather the original, of the order of the President of the United States, directing him to take possession of the War Department immediately. He told me that he had taken as a witness of his action General Williams, and had gone up into the War Department and had shown to Edwin M. Stanton the order of the President, and had demanded by virtue of that order the possession of the War Department and its books and papers. He told me that Edwin M. Stanton, after reading the order, had asked him if he would allow him sufficient time for him to gather together his books, papers, and other personal property and take them away with him; that he told him that he would allow to him all necessary time to do so, and had then withdrawn from Mr. Stanton's room. He further told me, that day being Friday, that the next day would be what he called a dies non, being the holiday of the anniversary of Washington's birthday, when he had directed that the War Department should be closed, that the day thereafter would be Sunday, and that on Monday morning he should demand possession of the War Department, and of its property, and if that demand was refused or resisted he should apply to the General-in-Chief of the Army for a force sufficient to enable him to take possession of the War Department; and he added that he did not see how the General of the Army could refuse to obey his demand for that office. He then added that under the order that the President had given to him he had no election to pursue any other course than the one that he indicated; that he was a subordinate officer, and that he must pursue that course.
Question. Did you see him afterward and have conversation with him on the subject?
Answer. I did.
Question. When was that?
Answer. That evening.
Question. Where?
Answer. At Willard's Hotel.
Question. What did he say there?
Answer. He then said that he should the next day demand possession of the War Department, and that if the demand was refused or resisted he should apply to General Grant for force to enable him to take possession, and he also repeated his declaration that he could not see how General Grant could refuse to obey that demand for force..
Question. State whether these were earnest conversations or otherwise?
Answer. Earnest conversations!
Question. Yes, sir, on his part.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Cross-examined by Mr. EVARTS.
Question. Are you connected with the press?
Answer. I am a journalist by profession.
Question. And have been for a great number of years?
Answer. A great number of years.
Question. Living in Washington during the session of Congress of the most part?
Answer. I have for the last seven years lived in Washington in the winter.
Question. You say that General Thomas told you that, under the order of the President, he did not see how he could do otherwise than he had stated . . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
Mr. EVARTS, (to the witness) So all the difference between the conversation on Friday night and Friday forenoon was that at night he proposed to do what he did propose to do on Saturday, and in the forenoon conversation he proposed to do it on Monday?
Answer. On Monday. . . .
* * * * * * * * * * *
George W. KARSNER sworn and examined.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. What is your full name?
Answer. George Washington Karsner.
Question. Of what place are you a citizen?
Answer. Delaware.
Question. What county?
Answer. New Castle county.
Question. Do you know Major General Lorenzo Thomas?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. How long have you known him.
Answer. I have known him a great while; I think I have known him since a short time after his graduation from West Point.
Question. Was he originally from the same county with you?
Answer. Yes sir.
Question. Did you see him in Washington somewhere about the 1st of March of this year?
Answer. I think it was about the 9th of March I first recollect seeing him here.
Question. When had you seen him prior to that time?
Answer. Not for several years. I cannot remember exactly when I last saw him before that.
Question. Where did you see him in Washington?
Answer. I saw him in the President's House; in the East Room of the President's House.
Question. What time in the day or evening.
Answer. It was, perhaps, a quarter past ten o'clock in the evening.
Question. The evening of what day in the week; do you remember?
Answer. I think it was on a Monday evening.
Question. Was the President holding a levee that evening?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Did you have any conversation with him?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Please state how the conversation began; what was said?
Mr. EVARTS. With General Thomas?
Mr. Manager BUTLER. With General Thomas.
Answer. Well, it commenced by my approaching him and mentioning that I was a Delawarean, and I supposed he would recognize me, which I think he did, but could not remember my name. I then gave him my name, and told him I knew him a great many years ago, and knew his father and brother and all the family. I gave him my hand, and he talked. He said he was a Delaware boy, which I very well knew; and he asked me what we were doing in Delaware. I do not remember the answer I gave him, but said I to him, "General, the eyes of Delaware are on you."
[Laughter]
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Order!
The Witness. I gave my advice to him. I told him I thought Delaware would require him to stand firm. "Stand firm, General," said I. He said he would, he was standing firm, and he would not disappoint his friends; and in two days, or two or three days, or a short time, he would kick that fellow out.
[Laughter]
* * * * * * * * * * *
Question. When he said he would "kick that fellow out" did he in any way indicate to you to whom he referred?
Answer. He did not mention any name.
Question. The question was whether he indicated to whom he referred?
Answer. Well, I think he referred to the Secretary of War. I did not have any doubt on my mind---
Mr. EVARTS. That was not the Question.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. It answers all I desire. The witness is yours gentleman.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Cross-examined by Mr. STANBERY.
Question. On that occasion did you come from Delaware to see General Thomas?
Answer. No sir; I had other business in Washington.
Question. Did you expect to see him or intend to see him?
Answer. Well, I wished to see the President of the United States, and wished to see the Cabinet. I saw them all except General Thomas in the reception room. I then walked into the East Room and I saw him there; I went to him in the East Room and spoke to him.
Question. You wanted to see him as well as the rest of the Cabinet?
Answer. Well, he was acting, the papers stated, as a member of the Cabinet.
Question. Whereabouts in the East Room did you encounter him?
Answer. On the west side, I think, of the East Room.
Question. Was it near the door or exit?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Near the center of the room?
Answer. I think it was. It was not the center of the room exactly, but somewhere in the center of the distance between that and the place of going out.
Question. At that time was General Thomas apparently going out?
Answer. No sir, When I first saw him there he was very much engaged, speaking with a gentleman very earnestly, and I waited until he had leisure and then I approached him.
Question. Did you know the gentleman he was speaking with?
Answer. No sir.
Question. But you had something to say to him. What did you intend to day yo him when you found out that he was there? You say you went over to see him; what did you intend to say to him?
Answer. Well, his being a Delawarean and I from the same State, I wanted to pass the compliments with him. I was glad to see him. I had no particular desire to see him on any business; but I just said to him what I have already stated.
Question. You did not go there especially to say to him that thing, then, but only to see him?
Answer. I was drawn there for the purpose of seeing Mr. Johnson, President of the United States; I had never seen him.
Question. After you had seen Mr. Johnson, and the other members of t he Cabinet, I understand you to say you then wanted to see General Thomas?
Answer. I asked a friend with me where General Thomas was; said I, "I, do not see him." * * * * * * * * * * *
Question. What was the first thing you said to Thomas after he was through with his conversation with the gentleman he was speaking to; how did you first address him?
Answer. I have already stated that.
Question. State it again.
Answer. I addressed him as a Delawarean, knowing him to be so. I told him that I was from Delaware. He said he was a Delaware boy himself. I knew that very well, and knew his family.
Question. Did you shake hands with him?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. What followed when you told him that you were from Delaware?
Answer. As I before stated, he asked me how things were coming on in Delaware, how we were all coming on; that was about the amount he asked me. that was about the amount he asked me.
Question. What was your answer?
Answer. I do not recollect the answer I gave.
Question. What was said next, if you do not recollect that answer?
Answer. The next was, as I before stated, that I told him the eyes of Delaware were on him, and to stand firm: that was the language I addressed to him.
Question. Was that all you said?
Answer. Well, no; I repeated, perhaps, some part of that or pretty much all. I repeated a portion of it, at any rate.
Question. When you asked him to stand firm what was his reply?
Answer. He said he was standing firm.
Question. What did you next say?
Answer. I told him the people of Delaware would expect it of him. He said they should not be disappointed.
Question. What next?
Answer. That he would stand firm; and he then remarked that he would kick that fellow out in two or three days, or in a short time, or in a few days; I cannot remember what his exact expression was.
Question. Now, I ask you, Mr. Karsner, if this idea of kicking out did not first come from you; whether you did not suggest it?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. You are sure of that?
Answer. I have taken an oath here.
Question. I ask you if you are sure of that?
Answer. I am sure of that.
Question. When he said he would kick him out, did you reply?
Answer. I do not know what I did reply just to that, for it was a pretty sever expression.
Question. What did you reply, severe or not; what did you say to him? * * * * * * * * * * *
Answer. I said "I think Delaware will expect something from you."
[Great laughter.]
Question. Was that what you meant by the severe remark you made to him?
The WITNESS. What do you mean?
Mr. STANBERY. Was that the severe remark, "that Delaware expected he would do something?"
The WITNESS. Delaware, I told him, would expect him to stand firm, and his conduct would be viewed by Delaware, or something to that effect.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Mr. STANBERY, (to the witness) Did the conversation stop there?
Answer. It was not a very long one. There might have been some few words said after that. Just before I left I renewed the desires of Delaware.
[Laughter]
The CHIEF JUSTICE. Order! Order!
By Mr. STANBERY.
Question. How did you renew the desires of Delaware? Did you feel yourself authorized to speak for Delaware?
Answer. Oh, well, you know, when we get away from home we think a good deal of home, and are inclined to speak in behalf of our own State.
Question. At that time were you in sympathy with the wishes of Delaware that he should do something in regard to the War Office?
Mr. Manage BUTLER. I object.
Mr. STANBERY. What is the ground of the objection?
Mr. Manager BUTLER. I do not think this is the proper mode of proving the sympathies of Delaware on this occasion; and, if it is, the sympathies of Delaware are a matter wholly immaterial to this issue.
Mr. STANBERY. We agree to that. The question was as to the sympathies of the witness. I will put the question in this form. [To the witness] Was the line of conduct he spoke of taking that which suited you?
Answer. I do not know whether it would or no.
Question. Did you in that conversation give him any advice beyond standing firm what he should do?
Answer. No, sir; not any advice further than I have stated.
Question. After you parted there to whom did you first communicate this conversation that you had had there with General Thomas?
Answer. Well, I communicated it---if the question is right for me to answer---
Mr. STANBERY. Yes, sir; you will answer it.
Answer. I communicated it to Mr. Tanner.
Question. Your friend?
Answer. Yes sir; that night.
Question. Whereabouts did you communicated that to Mr. Tanner?
Answer. Going along the street.
Question. Going away from there that night?
Answer. Yes sir; if my memory serves me aright, I think I did that night.
Question. To whom next?
Answer. I cannot tell the next one exactly.
Question. Do you mean to say you have no recollection now of telling anybody else but Mr. Tanner?
Answer. Yes; I told several that same thing. I did not charge my memory with the persons I told it to.
Question. You told several that night, the next day, or when?
Answer. The next day.
Question. In Washington?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. What did you tell, and whom to?
Answer. I say I cannot recollect precisely the persons I told it to. I told it to several.
Question. Do you recollect any one besides Tanner?
Answer. Yes I recollect a gentleman from Delaware.
Question. What was his name?
Answer. His name was Smith.
[Laughter]
Question. What was the first name of that Mr. Smith?
Answer. It was not John.
[Great laughter]
Question. What was it, if you say you recollect it was not John.
Answer. I think it was William.
Question. Whereabouts did you see William Smith?
Answer. In Washington.
Question. Whereabouts, then?
Answer. I saw him on the street.
Question. Near the court-house?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Whereabouts, then,
Answer. I do not know where your courthouse is here.
Question. Whereabouts in Washington did you see Smith?
Answer. I think it was on Pennsylvania Avenue.
Question. That's a pretty long avenue. Whereabouts on that avenue?
Answer. Not far from the National Hotel.
Question. On the street?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. What did you tell William Smith?
Answer. I told William Smith just what I have told you. [Laughter.] Yes, sir, I told him just what I have sworn to here.
Question. What part of Delaware was William Smith from?
Answer. He is from the banks of the Brandywine.
[Great laughter]
Question. Which bank of the Brandywine does he live on?
Answer. I think he is on the east bank of the Brandywine, or northeast.
Question. Does he live in town or country?
Answer. He lives in the country. He is a farmer.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chief Justice thinks that this examination is irrelevant, and should not be protracted. * * * * * * * * * * *
By Mr. STANBERY:
Question. Do you know at whose instance you were summoned?
Answer. No; I can tell that exactly, at whose instance, what particular person had me summoned. I was summoned before the Managers of the House of Representative, and ordered at a certain to be at the judiciary apartment up stairs over the House of Representatives.
Re-examined by Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. You have been asked if you were summoned before the Managers. Did you testify there?
Answer. I did.
Question. After you had testified there, was General Thomas called in?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Was your testimony, as you have given it here, read over before him?
Mr. GROESBECK. We object to that.
The WITNESS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Now, I propose to ask whether General Thomas was asked if that was true, and if he admitted upon his oath that it was true, all you have stated.
Mr. CURTIS. We object to that, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. I think it is competent.
Mr. CURTIS. We do not think they can support their witness by showing what a third person, General Thomas, said.
The CHIEF JUSTICE, (to the Managers) Do you press the question?
Mr. Manager BUTLER. I do press the question, Mr. Chief Justice, for this reason: upon an innocent and unoffending man there has been a very severe cross-examination within the duties of the counsel, undoubtedly--- he did not mean to do more than his duty--- attempting to discredit him here by that cross-examination as to a conversation. If that cross-examination meant anything, that is what it meant. Now, I propose to show that the co-conspirator here, Thomas, admitted the correctness of this man's statements. This man was heard as a witness by the House of Representatives; The Managers of the House of Representatives, having taken his testimony, not willing to do any injustice to General Thomas, brought General Thomas in and sat him down and on his oath put the question to him, is what this man says true? being the same then as he swears here, and General Thomas admitted it word for word. I think it is competent and do press it.
Mr. CURTIS. Our view of it is, Mr. Chief Justice, that, having called this witness and put him on the stand, they cannot show that he has, on a different occasion, told the same story. That is a plain matter, and I do not understand that that is the ground which they take.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. We do not propose that.
Mr. CURTIS. Then they offer the declarations of General Thomas, not in reference to any conspiracy, not in reference to any agreement between himself and the President as to doing anything, not in reference to any act done pursuant to that conspiracy, but simply the declarations of General Thomas as to something which General Thomas has said to this witness to support the credit of the witness.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Mr. President, having made the offer, and it being objected to, and it being clearly competent, if General Thomas is ever brought here to contradict it will waive it.
Mr. CURTIS. Very well.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Then we are through with the witness; but we must request him to remain in attendance until discharged.
Witness for the President
Lorenzo THOMAS sworn and examined.
By Mr. STANBERY:
Question. General Thomas, will you state how long you have been in the service.
Answer. I went to West Point in the year 1819. I entered the Military Academy in September of that year, and was graduated July 1, 1823, and appointed second lieutenant of the fourth infantry. I have been in the Army since that date
Question. What is your present rank in the Army?
Answer. I am an adjutant general of the Army, with the rank of brigadier general, and major general by brevet. . . . .
Question. On what service were you during the war, generally? Give us an idea of your service.
Answer. During the administration of the War Department by General Cameron I was on duty as adjutant general in the office. I accompanied him on his western trip to Missouri and Kentucky and returned with him. Then, after that, after making that report, he left the Department, and Mr. Stanton was appointed. I remained in the Department some time after Mr. Stanton was appointed, several months. The first duty he place me on from the office---at any rate as one of the duties---he sent me down on the James river to make exchange of prisoners of war under the arrangement made by General Dix with the rebels. . . .
Question. What was the next service?
Answer. During the war, I was sent once or twice---three times, perhaps--- to Harrisburg to organize volunteers and to correct some irregularities there; not irregularities exactly, but in order to put regiments together, skeleton regiments. I was sent there and ordered to bring them together ---once at Philadelphia and twice at Harrisburg also about the time that Lee was invading Maryland and Pennsylvania; but my principal duty was down on the Mississippi river.
Question. What was the duty there?
Answer. Threefold. The first was to inspect the armies on the river in that part of the country. The second was to look into cotton lands . . . .
Question. What was the third duty?
Answer. To take charge of the negro population and organize them as troops.
Question. Were you the first officer who organized the negro regiments?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Who was prior to you?
Answer. I think that General Butler had organized some in New Orleans. Some were organized before I took charge. I was sent down on the Mississippi and in the rebellious States, and I had charge of all of them there.
Question. What number of regiments were organized under your care?
Answer. I organized upward of eighty thousand colored soldiers. This particular number of regiments I do not recollect, because they were numbered some with those in New Orleans and some with those in the East. . . . .
Mr. STANBERY. What happened in the War office on the morning of the 21st of February in regard to closing the office on the succeeding day, the 22nd?
Answer. Toward twelve o'clock I went up myself and asked Mr. Stanton, then Secretary of War, if I should close the office the next day, the 22nd of February, and he directed me to do it. I issued such a circular and sent it around to the different Departments.
Question. Was that an order made by you as adjutant general?
Answer. Yes, sir; by his order.
Question. Was that before you had seen the president that day?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Now, hat took place after you had issued that order?
Answer. Very soon after I had issued it I received a note from Colonel Moore, the Private Secretary of the President, that the President wished to see me. I immediately went over to the White House, and saw the President. He came out of his library with two communications in his hand.
Question. He came out with two papers in his hand?
Answer. Yes, sir. He hander them to Colonel Moore to read. They were read to me.
Question. Read aloud?
Answer. Read aloud. One was addressed to Mr. Stanton, dismissing him from office, and directing him to turn over the books, papers & c., pertaining to the War Department. The other was addressed to me, appointing me Secretary of War ad interim, and stating that Mr. Stanton had been directed to transfer the office to me.
Question. Was that the first time you saw those papers, or either of them?
Answer. The first time.
Question. You had no hand whatever in writing those papers or dictating them?
Answer. Nothing whatever. . . .
Question. What, then, was said between you and the President?
Answer. He said he was determined to support the Constitution and the laws, and he desired me to do the same. [Laughter.] . . . .
Question. What further too place or was said?
Answer. He then directed me to deliver this paper addressed to Mr. Stanton to him.
Question. Was that all? Did you then leave?
Answer. I told him that I would take and officer in my department with me to see that I delivered it and note what occurred, and I stated that I would take General Williams.
Question. Who is General Williams?
Answer. One of the assistant adjutants general in my department on duty there.
Question. You told the President you would take him along to witness the transaction?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. What did you do then?
Answer. I went to over to the War Department, went into one of my rooms, and told General Williams I wished him to go with me; I did not say for what purpose. I told him I wanted him to go with me to the Secretary of War and note what occurred.
Question. Without telling him what it was you intended?
Answer. I did not tell him anything about it. I then went to the Secretary's room and handed him the first paper.
Question. When you say the first paper, which was that?
Answer. The paper addressed to him.
Question. What took place then? Did he read it?
Answer. He got up when I came in, and we bade good morning to each other, and I handed him that paper, and he put it down on the corner of his table and sat down. Presently he got up and opened it and read it, and he then said, "Do you wish me to vacate the office at once, or will you give me time to remove my private property?" I said, "Act your pleasure."
Question. Did he say what time he would require?
Answer. No, sir; I did not ask him. I then handed him the paper addressed to me, which he read, and he asked me to give him a copy.
Question. What did you say?
Answer. In the meantime General Grant came in, and I handed it to him. General Grant asked me if that was for him. I said no; merely for his information. I promised a copy, and I went down.
Question. Down where? To your office?
Answer. Into my own room. . . .
Question. You went down and made a copy of the order?
Answer. I had a copy made, which I certified as Secretary of War ad interim. I took that up and handed it to him. He then said, "I do not know whether I will obey your instructions or whether I will resist them." Nothing more passed of any moment, and I left.
Question. Was General Grant there at the second interview?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. The Secretary was alone then?
Answer. He was alone. His son may have been there, because he was generally in the room.
Question. Did General Williams go up with you the second time?
Answer. Did General Williams go up with you the second time?
Question. No, sir.
Answer. What time of the day was this?
Question. I think it was about twelve o'clock that I went up to see the Secretary, and this was just after I came down and wrote the order--- it was toward one o'clock, I suppose.
Answer. It was immediately after you had written the order to close the office?
Question. Yes, I got the note immediately after from Colonel Moore.
Answer. Was that all that occurred between you and the Secretary on that day, the 21st?
Question. I think it was. [After a pause.] No, no; I was confounding the 22d with the 21st.
Answer. What further?
Question. I went into the other room and he was there, and I said that I should issue orders as Secretary of War. He said that I should not; he would countermand them, and he turned to General Schriver and also to General Townsend, who were in the room, and directed them not to obey any orders coming from me as Secretary of War . . . .
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Secretary will read the question once more.
The Secretary read as follows:
What occurred between the President and yourself at that second interview on the 21st.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The question is, is the question just read admissible?
Mr. DRAKE. On that I ask for the yeas and nays.
The yeas and nays were ordered; and being taken, resulted--- yeas 42, nays 10 . . . .
So the Senate determined the question to be admissible.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. The question will be read to the witness.
What occurred between the President and yourself at that second interview on the 21st.
The WITNESS. I stated to the President that I had delivered the communication, and that Mr. Stanton gave this answer: "Do you wish me to vacate at once or will you give me time to take away my private property?" and that I replied "act at your pleasure." I then said that after delivering the copy of the letter to him, he said: "I do not know whether I will obey your instructions or resist them." This I mentioned to the President, and his answer was: "Very well; go and take charge of the office and perform the duties."
By Mr. STANBERY:
Question. Was that all that passed?
Answer. That is about all that passed a that time.
Question. What time in the afternoon was that?
Answer. That was immediately after giving the second letter to Mr. Stanton.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. We withdraw all objection to that conversation. [Laughter.]
Mr. STANBERY. Whether you do or not it is in. The withdrawal is ex post facto. [To the witness.] Was this before or after you got Stanton's order?
Answer. It was after.
Question. Did you see Stanton again that afternoon?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Or the President?
Answer. What first happened to you the next morning?
Question. The first thing that happened to me next morning was the appearance at my house of the marshal of the District, with an assistant marshal and a constable, and he arrested me.
Answer. What time in the morning was that?
Question. About eight o'clock, before I had my breakfast. The command was to appear forthwith. I asked if he would permit me to see the President; I simply wanted to inform him that I had been arrested. To that he kindly assented, though he said he must not lose sight of me for a moment. I told him certainly I did not wish to be out of his sight. He went with me to the President's and went into the room where the President was. I stated that I had been arrested, at whose suit I did not know . . . .
He said "Very well, that is the place I want it in---the courts." He advised me then to go to you, and the marshal permitted me to go to your quarters at the hotel. I told you that I had been arrested and asked what I should do--- . . . .
Mr. STANBERY. Were you held to bail or anything of that kind?
Answer. I was required to give bail in $5,000.
Question. And then discharged from custody?
Answer. I was then discharged.
Question. After you were admitted to bail, did you go again to the War Department that day?
Answer. I did.
Question. When did you next go to the War Department that day.
Answer. I went immediately from there, first stopping at the President's on my way, and stating to him that I had given bail. He made the same answer, "Very well; we want it in the courts." I then went over to the War Office and found the east door locked. This was on the 22d the office was closed. I asked the messenger for my key. He told me that he had not got it; the keys had all been taken away, and my door was locked. I then went up to Mr. Stanton's room, the one that he hr occupies as an office, where he receives. I found him there with some six or eight gentlemen some of whom I recognized, and I understood afterward that they were all members of Congress. I stated that I came in to demand the office. He refused to give it to me and ordered me to my room as Adjutant General. I refused to obey. I made the demand a second and a third time. He as often refused and as often ordered me to my room. He then said "You may stand there; stand as long as you please." I saw nothing further was to be done, and I left the room and went into General Schriver's office, sat down and had a chat with him, he being an old friend. Mr. Stanton followed me in there, and Governor Moorhead, member of Congress from Pittsburgh. He told Governor Moorhead to note the conversation, and I think he took notes at a side table. He asked me pretty much the same questions as before.
Question. State what he did ask?
Answer. Whether I insisted upon acting as Secretary of War and should claim the office. I gave a direct answer, "yes;" and I think it was at that time I said I should also require the mails. I said that on one occasion, and I think then. I did not know whether it is on the memorandum or not. Then there was some little chat with the Secretary himself.
Question. Between you and the Secretary.
Answer. Between me and the Secretary.
Question. Had these members of Congress withdrawn then?
Answer. Yes sir.
Question. Now, tell us what happened between you and the Secretary after they withdrew.
Answer. I do not recollect what first occurred; but I said to him, "the next time you have me arrested" ---for I had found out it was at his suit I was arrested; I had seen the paper---
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Stop a moment. I propose, Mr. President, to object to the conversation between the Secretary and General Thomas at a time which we have not put in, because we put in only the conversation while the other gentlemen were there. This is something that took place after they had withdrawn.
Mr. STANBERY. What is the difference; they did not stay to hear the whole.
The CHIEF JUSTICE. It appears to have been immediately afterward and part of the same conversation.
Mr. STANBERY. The same conversation went right on.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Will General Thomas say it was the same conversation?
The WITNESS. Mr. Stanton turned to me and got talking in a familiar manner.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Go on, then, sir.
The WITNESS. I said "the next time you have me arrested, please do not do it before I get something to eat." I said I had had nothing to eat or drink that day. He put his hand around my neck, as he sometimes does, and ran his hand through my hair, and turned around to General Schriver and said, "Schriver, you have got a bottle here; bring it out. [Laughter.]
By Mr. STANBERY
Question. What then took place?
Answer. Schriver unlocked his case and brought out a small vial, containing, I suppose, about a spoonful of whisky, and stated at the same time that he occasionally took a little for dyspepsia. [Laughter] Mr. Stanton took that and poured it into a tumbler and divided it equally and we drank it together.
Question. A fair division?
Answer. A fair division, because he held up the glasses to the light and saw that they each had about the same, and we each drank. [Laughter] Mr. Stanton took that and poured it into a tumbler and divided it equally and we drank it together.
Question. A fair division?
Answer. A fair division, because he held up the glasses to the light and saw that they each had about the same, and we each drank. [Laughter] Presently a messenger came in with a bottle of whisky, a full bottle; the cork was drawn, and he and I took a drink together. "Now, said he, "this, at least, is neutral ground." [Laughter]
Question. Was that all the force exhibited that day?
Answer. That was all.
Question. Have you ever had any instructions or directions from the President to use force, intimidation, or threats at any time?
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Wait. "At any time?" That would bring it down to today. I supposed the ruling did not come down to today. Any time prior to the 21st or 22d of February I am content with your inquiring about, but I still must object to putting in what was said yesterday.
Mr. STANBERY. On the 9th of March you say it still continued.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. The 9th of March?
Mr. STANBERY. Then we will inquire prior to the ninth of March. . . .
The WITNESS. He did not.
By MR. STANBERY.
Question. Now please state what conversation you had with Mr. Burleigh on the night of the 21st of February.
Answer. He came to my house and asked me in reference to this matter of my being appointed Secretary of War. I told him I was appointed, and I mentioned what occurred between Mr. Stanton and myself, and I think it w as that which let him to ask me "What are you going to do?" Mr. Stanton having said he did not know whether he would obey my instructions or resist them. There are two persons I spoke with. To one I said, that if I found my door locked, or if I found the War Office locked, I would break open the door; and to the other I said I would call upon General Grant for force. I have got them mixed up; I do not know which expression I used to Mr. Wilkeson, but one to him and the other to Dr. Burleigh; I do not suppose it makes any difference which. Their testimony shows that better than mine. Mr. Burleigh asked me what time I was going to the War Office. I told him I would be there about ten o'clock the next day. This was the night of the 21st I was talking to him. The conversation was a short one; he very soon left me, saying he would call again. I think he said he would come up to the War Office the next morning.
Question. Did you ask him to go?
Answer. I did not. I think he said he would come and see the fun, or something of that kind.
Question. What was the conversation you had with Mr. Karsner on the 9th of March?
Answer. I would like to describe that.
Question. What do you know of Mr. Karsner?
Answer. I knew nothing about him whatever until I had seen him them. If I had been asked the question, I should have said I had never seen him, though m7 attention was once called to the fact that I did once see him in the spring of 1827, when I happened to be at home with a severe spell of sickness. I did see him on that occasion. I suppose there were circumstances brought it to my mind.
Question. What took place at the President's?
Answer. It was toward the end of the President's reception, and I was walking with General Todd, and was about going out of the door when I found that this person rushed forward and seized me by the hand. I looked surprised, because I did not know him. He mentioned his name, but I could not recollect it. I understood him to sat that he was from New Castle, my native village. He certainly used both those words; but he says he did not; it is possible he did not, as he says he only stated that he was from New Castle county. I may be mistaken; I do not want to do him an injustice. He said that he knew my father and my brother, and that he had known me forty years before. I suppose that would have been about the time I spoke of; but I have not recollection of it at all. He held on to my hand. I was surprised at the man's manner, because he came up to me as if I had been an intimate relation of his for years.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Stop a moment. I suppose this is a little improper to give his surprises. Tell us what was done and stated there.
Mr. STANBERY. Go on, General.
The WITNESS. I tried to get away from him, and he then said--- he was a Delawarean--- "the eyes of all Delaware are upon you [laughter,] and they expect you to stand fast." I said: "Certainly I shall stand fast." and I was about leaving when he seized my hand again and asked me a second time and the same question, saying that he expected me to stand fast. Said I: "Certainly I will stand fast." I was smiling all the time. I got away from his hand a second time, and he seized it again and drew me further in the room and asked the same Question. I was a little amused, when I raised myself up on my toes in this way [standing on tiptoes] and said; "Why, don't you see I am standing firm?" Then he put this in my mouth: "When are you going to kick that fellow out," or something of that kind "Oh," said I, "we will kick him out by and by."
Question. Are you certain the "kicking out" came from him?
Answer. Yes, sir---oh yes. [Laughter.] I want to say one thing. I did not intend any disrespect to Mr. Stanton at all. On the contrary, he has always treated with kindness, and I would do nothing to treat him with disrespect.
Question. Had you ever any idea of kicking Mr. Stanton for any purpose?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. How came you to use the word at all?
Answer. Because it was put in my mouth.
Question. Did you say it seriously or in a jocular way.
Answer. (smilingly.) I was very glad to get away; I went out at once.
Cross-examined by Mr. Manager BUTLER.
Question. Did I understand you to say that there had been no unkind feelings between you and Mr. Stanton ever?
Answer. No, sir; I do not think there ever had been any unkind feeling.
Question. Or difference of opinion?
Answer. There was a difference of opinion, I suppose . . . .
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Now, General Thomas, when did you first receive the intimation from the President that you were to be made Secretary of War?
Answer. The President sent for me on the 18th of February.
Question. Three days before you got the order, was it?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Have you ever stated that you had an intimation from the president that you were to be made Secretary of War earlier than that.
Answer. I must now refer to a paper which I suppose you have. When I was asked before one of the committees when I first got an intimation I supposed they were referring to my going in the Adjutant General's office, but I never had an intimation before the 18th of February that the President had any idea of making me Secretary of War.
Question. Now, if you will pay attention to my question, General Thomas, and answer it you will oblige me. My question was, whether you ever stated to anybody that you got such an intimation before that time?
Answer. Not to my knowledge, unless it was before that committee, as I tell you, the two things were mixed up.
Question. Did you not swear that before the committee?
Answer. I afterward made a correction on that paper.
Question. Excuse me; I did not ask you what corrections you made; I asked you what you swore to?
Answer. I swore that I had received an intimation, but I found that it was not so, and I had a right to correct my testimony.
Question. You were asked, then, before the committee, not the Managers?
Answer. I am not speaking of the Managers, but of the committee.
Question. You were asked before a committee of the House when you received the first intimation. How early did you swear that to be, whether it was a mistake or otherwise.
Answer. The intimation that I received that I would probably be put in the Adjutant General's office must have been made some two weeks before the occurrence, perhaps.
Question. I ask now, and I want you again to pay attention to my question---
Answer. I know your Question.
Question. How early did you swear that you received an intimation that you would be made Secretary of War?
Answer. I should like to divide those two things. I told you that I corrected my evidence.
Question. I am dividing them; now I am getting to what you swore to first; by and by I will come to the correction, perhaps. I have divided them. Now answer my question: What did you swear to first before you took advice?
Mr. STANBERY. "Took advice!" Monstrous!
The WITNESS I swore that I received an intimation---I think an intimation from Colonel Moore.
Question. I did not ask you who you received it from; I asked the time when?
Answer. I cannot tell the time; I do not know it.
Question. What time did you swear it was.
Answer. I say I do not know; I suppose two or three weeks; I cannot say.
Question. Did you receive it from Colonel Moore, the Military Secretary?
Answer. Receive what?
Question. The intimation that you were to be made Secretary of War?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you so testify?
Answer. I suppose not, because I tell you the two cases were in my mind. I think I have answered it distinctly enough. The honorable Manager is trying to mix two things, when I am trying to separate them.
Question. Now, sir, did you not know or believe you were to be made Secretary of War before you received that order of the 21st of February?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Did you not believe you were?
Answer. The 18th, I said.
Question. Now listen to the question and answer it. That will be better. I ask you if you did not know you were to be made Secretary of War before you received that order of the 21st of February?
Answer. "Know" positive, no.
Question. Did you not believe you were to be?
Answer. I thought I would be, because it was intimated to me.
Question. Intimated to you by the President himself?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Did you tell him whether you would be glad to take the office?
Answer. I told him I would take it; I would obey his orders.
Question. What made you tell him that you would obey his orders.
Answer. Because he was my Commander in Chief.
Question. Why was it necessary to tell him you would obey his orders?
Answer. I do not know that there was any particular necessity in it.
Question. Why would you say to him, when he asked you yo be Secretary of War, that you would, and would obey his orders?
Answer. Certainly, as Secretary of War.
Question. Why did you feel it necessary in your own mind to say that you would obey his orders.
Answer. I do not know that it ws particularly necessary.
Question. Why did you do it?
Answer. It was a very natural reply to make.
Question. Tell me any other time, when you were appointed to an office, that you told the appointing power you would obey the orders? . . . .
Answer. Certainly, it was; I never had one of that kind before. [Laughter]
Question. And so extraordinary that you thought it necessary to tell the President before you got it that if he would give it to you you would obey his orders?
Answer. I did not say any such thing.
Question. You did so tell him?
Answer. I did tell him so?
Question. And you thought it was proper so to tell him?
Answer. Certainly.
Question. What orders did you expect to receive that you found it necessary to tell him you would obey them?
Answer. I did not know that I was to expect to receive any particular order.
Question. Then, before you got the appointment you told him you would obey the order. This was on the 18th?
Answer. Yes . . . .
Question. Between the 18th and the 21st did you go to your friend Stanton and tell him that you thought of taking his place?
Answer. No sir.
Question. Were you in the War Office?
Answer. I was generally there every day.
Question. On the 21st you were sent for again by Colonel Moore, were you not?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. By a note?
Answer. A note.
Question. You got a note to go to the President's.
Answer. I got a note to go to the President's.
Question. Did you know for what purpose?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Did you suspect?
Answer. I had no suspicion at all.
Question. Did you not have some belief of what you were going there for?
Answer. I had not.
Question. And you went over?
Answer. I went over, of course.
Question. You went into the President's room, and he was coming out of the library, you say?
Answer. I went into the council room, and he came out of the library with Colonel Moore.
Question. Fetching two papers ready written?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Now, please state to me exactly, in order, what was first said and what was next said by each of you. The President is coming out with two papers in his hand; what next?
Answer. I think the first thing he did was to hand them to Colonel Moore and tell him to read them.
Question. What next? They were read then?
Answer. They were read and handed to me.
Question. What then?
Answer. He said: "I shall uphold the Constitution and the laws, and I expect you to do the same." I said certainly I would do it, and I would obey his orders; that is the time I used that expression.
Question. Let me see if I have got it exactly. He came out with the two papers; handed them to Colonel Moore; Colonel Moore read them. He then said: I am going to uphold the Constitution and the laws, and I want you to do the same; and you said, "I will, and I will obey your orders?"
Answer. I did.
Question. Why did you put in you would obey his orders just then?
Answer. I suppose it was very natural, speaking to my Commander-in-Chief.
Question. What next was said then?
Answer. He told me to go over to Mr. Stanton and deliver the paper addressed to him/
Question. Which you did so?
Answer. I did.
Question. In the manner you have told us?
Answer. Yes, sir. . . .
Question. Did you see the President again that day?
Answer. Not after I paid this visit.
Question. Then after he told you to go and take possession of the office you did not see the President? Was it Mr. Wilkeson or Mr. Burleigh that you first told about taking possession of the office?
Answer. Wilkeson.
Question. Where was that?
Answer. I think it was in my own office first.
Question. About how long after you left the President's?
Answer. I am not certain whether it was before or after, as Wilkeson came there to see me.
Question. You do not know whether it was before or after that?
Answer. I do not recall whether it was before I went over to the President's or after. I think it was before, however.
Question. You told Mr. Wilkeson, he tells us, that you meant to call on General Grant for a military force to take possession of the office?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you mean that when you told it, or was it merely rhodomontade?
Answer. I suppose I did not mean it, for it never entered my head to use force.
Question. You did not mean it?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. It was a mere boast, brag?
Answer. Oh, yes.
Question. How was that? Speak as loud as you did when you began.
Answer. I suppose so.
Question. Very well, then. You saw Wilkeson that evening again, did you not, at Willard's Hotel?
Answer. I think I saw him there for a few moments.
Question. Did you again tell him you meant to use force to get into the office?
Answer. That I do not recollect. I stated it to him once I know.
Question. Did he not then say, "But suppose the doors are barred;" I will batter them down," or "We will batter them down?"
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Was that a brag?
Answer. No, sir. At that time I felt as if I would open the doors if they were locked against me. . . .
Mr. Manager BUTLER. Now, then, General Thomas, when you come to the solemn conclusion to use force after solemnly thinking of the matter, did you believe in your own mind you were carrying out the President's orders?
Answer. No; quite the reverse.
Question. Then when you came to that conclusion you believed you were going to do it against he orders, did you?
Answer. Not in accordance with them, certainly.
Question. Then, although you had told him on the day before that you would obey his orders, you came to a determination to do quite the reverse, did you?
Mr. STANBERY. He has not said that.
Mr. Manager BUTLER. I am asking him if he did.
The WITNESS. Repeat the Question.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER.
Question. You say that you came to the solemn determination to use force, and you meant to do it, quite in reverse of the President's orders?
Answer. I said no such thing.
Question. Hear the Question. The day before when you received you appointment you told him you would obey his orders?
Answer. I did.
Question. The first act that you came to a solemn conclusion about was that you proposed to act the very reverse of his orders?
Answer. I did not say that was in reverse of his orders. I said that was my idea; if I was resisted, I could resist in turn.
Question. Did you mean to do that act in obedience to the President's orders or against them?
Answer. Not in obedience to the President's orders, for he gave me no orders.
Question. You mean to say that you had come to a solemn resolution on your own responsibility to initiate bloodshed?
Answer. I said that I would, if I found the doors locked, break them down, and I afterward said that when I came to think of the matter I found that a difficulty might occur, and I would not ben the means of bringing about bloodshed. That is what I say.
Question. Did you think you were justified in doing what you came to the conclusion to do by the President's order?
Answer. I would have been justified as my own act.
Question. Did you believe you were so justified by the President's order?
Answer. No; not by the President's order--- by the appointment which he gave me, yes.
Question. The appointment he gave you?
Answer. I had a right then to go and take possession of that office.
Question. By force?
Answer. In any way I pleased?
Question. At your pleasure, by force. Now, did you ever ask the President what you should do?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Did you ever suggest to him that Stanton would resist?
Answer. I reported to him from day to day that every time I asked him he refused?
Question. Anything but the refusal?
Answer. The refusal was the only thing.
Question. Did you ever suggest to him that Stanton would resist?
Answer. Resist by force?
Question. Yes, sir.
Answer. No; I said he refused.
Question. Did you not understand in your own mind that he would so resist?
Answer. I did not know what means he would take.
Question. I did not ask you what you knew. Did you not in your own mind believe he would resist?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Had you any doubt of it?
Answer. I had not.
Question. Did you not know that, if you got in at all, you must get in by force?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you ever report to the President, your superior, that you came to the conclusion that you could not get in, if you got in at all, except by force?
Answer. I said no such thing to him.
Question. Why did you not report to him the conclusion you came to?
Answer. I did not think it necessary at all.
Question. You reported to him every time Stanton refused?
Answer. Yes.
Question. But you did not think it necessary to report to him that could not get the office without resistance?
Answer. No.
Question. And you never asked his advice what you should do?
Answer. No.
Question. Nor for his command?
Answer. No.
Question. Nor orders in any way?
Answer. No. He merely told me to go on and take possession of the office, without stating how I was to do it.
Question. And how many times over did he keep telling you that, as you reported to him?
Answer. I think I had three interviews with Mr. Stanton.
Question. One Friday?
Answer. One Saturday, one Monday, and one Tuesday; I think four. Saturday was the time I made the demand.
Question. Each time you reported it to the President?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. During all the time you were certain he would not give up except by force?
Answer. I was certain he would not give up; he was going to keep it.
Question. And, thinking it important to report each time his refusal, you never asked the President how you should get possession of the office?
Answer. I never did.
Question. Nor ever suggested to him that you could not get it except by force?
Answer. I suggested to him that the true plan would be, in order to get possession of the papers, to call upon General Grant----
Question. Leave the papers--- the office I am talking about?
Answer. The papers are the thing. You cannot carry on an office unless you have what is inside of it.
Question. I did not ask how you can carry on an office. I ask if you ever reported to him anything more than Mr. Stanton's refusal?
Answer. I never did.
Question. You never asked how you were to get possession of the building
Answer. No.
Question. Now, let me come to the matter of papers. Did you afterward hit upon a scheme by which you might get possession of the papers without getting possession of the building?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. And that was by getting an order of General Grant?
Answer. Yes---
Mr. EVARTS. He has not stated what it was.
By Mr. Manager BUTLER:
Question. Did you write such an order?
Answer. I wrote the draft of a letter; yes, and gave it to the President.
Question. Did you sign it?
Answer. I signed it.
Question. And left it with the President for his----
Answer. For his consideration.
Question. When was that?
Answer. The letter is dated the 10th of March.
Question. That was the morning after you told Karsner you were going to kick him out?
Answer. That was the morning after.
Question. And you carried that letter?
Answer. I had spoken to the President before about that matter.
Question. You did not think any bloodshed would come of that letter?
Answer. None at all.
Question. And the letter was to be issued as your order?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And before you issued that order, took that away to get hold of the mails or papers, you thought it necessary to consult the President?
Answer. I gave that to him for his consideration.
Question. You did think it necessary to consult the President, did you not?
Answer. I had consulted him before.
Question. Either before or after you thought it necessary?
Answer. It was merely carrying out that consultation.
Question. When you thought of getting possession of the mails and papers through an order as Secretary of War you thought it necessary to to consult the President; but you did not think any bloodshed would come from that, did you?
Answer. No, I did not; it was a peaceable mode.
Question. When you were about taking a peaceable mode in issuing your order you consulted him? When you had come to the conclusion to run the risk of bloodshed you did not consult him? Is that so?
Answer. I did not consult him.
Question. Did the President ever give at any of these times any other answer than "Go on, and get possession?"
Answer. No; not in reference to the office.
Question. Did he ever chide you in any way for any means that you were employing?
Answer. Never.
Question. Did he ever find fault that you were doing it differently than what you ought to do?
Answer. No.
Question. Did he ever remark to you in any way about declarations of force until after these impeachment proceedings began?
Answer. No.
Question. They were published and notorious, were they not? Have you acted as Secretary of War ad interim since?
Answer. I have given no order whatever.
Question. That may not be all the action of a Secretary of War ad interim. Have you acted as Secretary of War ad interim?
Answer. I have, in other respects.
Question. What other respects?
Answer. I have attended the councils.
Question. Cabinet meetings, you mean?
Answer. Cabinet meetings.
Question. Have you been recognized as Secretary of War ad interim?
Answer. I have been.
Question. Continually?
Answer. Continually.
Question. By the President and the other members of the Cabinet?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Down to the present hour?
Answer. Down to the present hour. . . . .
Question. Did the President in any of these interviews with you, his Cabinet counselor, his constitutional adviser, ever suggest to you that he had not removed Mr. Stanton?
Answer. Never. He always said that Mr. Stanton was out of office; he took that ground at once?
Question. Were you not somewhat surprised when you heard Mr.Curtis say here yesterday that he was not removed?
Answer. I do not know anything about that.
Question. Did he ever tell you that you were not appointed?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you not always know you were appointed?
Answer. Yes
Question. Has he not over and over again told you you were appointed?
Answer. No; not over and over again.
Question. But two or three times?
Answer. I do not know that it has come up at all. He may have done it two or three times. . . .
Question. Has not the President given you directions about other things than taking possession of the War Office?
Answer. He has told me on several occasions what he wanted. He wanted to get some nominations sent up here. They were on the Secretary's table, on Mr. Stanton's table.
Question. General Thomas, how many times yesterday did you answer that the President told you each time to "take possession of the office?"
Answer. I have not read over my testimony particularly. I do not know how many times.
Question. Was it untrue each time you said it?
Answer. If I said so it was. "Take charge" were the words of the President.
Question. Have you any memorandum by which you can correct that expression? If so, produce it.
Answer. I have no memorandum with me here; I do not know that I have any.
Question. Have you looked at one since you were on the stand?
Answer. I have not.
Question. How can you tell better today than you could yesterday?
Answer. Because I red that evidence as recorded.
Question. You gave it yesterday yourself?
Answer. I did.
Question. And you could know better what it was by reading it than when you testified to it?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. And you are sure the word was "charge" each time?
Answer. "Take charge of"
Question. And then the three times when you reported to him that Stanton would not go out, refused to go out, each time he said, "Take charge of the office?"
Answer. He did.
Question. Was your attention called at the time he said that to the difference between taking "charge" of the office and taking "possession" of it?
Answer. My attention was not called to it.
Question. How, then, do you so carefully make that distinction now in your mind?
Answer. Because I know that that was his expression. I have thought the matter over.
Question. You have always known that that was his expression have you not?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you have thought the matter over?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Well, then, how could you make such a mistake yesterday?
Answer. I think the words were put into my mouth; I do not recollect distinctly.
Question. The same as Karsner put in about the "kicking out?"
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you were rather in the habit, are you, when words are put into your mouth, of using them?
Answer. I am not always in the habit.
Question. Why was yesterday and exception?
Answer. I do not know why it was an exception.
Question. I want to ask you another question on another subject which was omitted yesterday?
Answer. Certainly.
Question. After you and Karsner were summoned here as witnesses, did you go out and quarrel with him?
Answer. I had some words with him in the room here adjoining.
Question. Did you call him a liar and a perjurer?
Answer. I did.
Question. You called him a liar and perjurer, did you?
Answer. I think I did both; I certainly called him a liar.
Question. And a perjurer?
Answer. I think it is probable I did; but the "liar" I know. . . . .
Question. Did you offer violence to him?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Did you speak violently to him?
Answer. I did not, except in that way.
Question. Were you then in full uniform as now?
Answer. As I am now.
Question. There is another question I want to ask you which was omitted. Do you still intend to take charge or possession of the office of Secretary of War?
Answer. I do.
Question. Have you said to any person within a few days, "We'll have that fellow," meaning Stanton, "out, if it sinks the ship?"
Answer. Never.