[Reed testified that Vanzetti yelled at him shortly after the Braintree murders.]
Wednesday, June 15, 1921.
Austin T. Reed, Sworn.
Q. [By Mr. Williams.] What is your name?
A. Austin T. Reed.
Q. Where do you live?
A. East Bridgewater.
Q. What street?
A. 113 Belmont Street.
Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Reed?
A. Cutting linings.
Q. At the present time?
A. Yes.
THE COURT. Cutting what?
THE WITNESS. Leather linings.
Q. How long have you been doing that?
A. About a year.
Q. Do you remember the day of the South Braintree shooting?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what you were doing on that day? That is, in what employment were you?
A. Crossing tender.
Q. Where abouts?
A. At Matfield.
Q. How long had you been crossing tender at that time?
A. About three weeks.
Q. You were employed by the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad, I presume?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, on what line is that Matfield crossing?
A. It is the line between Boston and Plymouth.
Q. You don't mean that, do you? Not Boston and Plymouth?
A. Boston and Middleboro, to the Cape.
Q. And what stations-or, strike that out, please. Is there a station at the Matfield crossing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the name of that station?
A. Matfield.
Q. What stations lie on either side of the Matfield station?
A. Campello and Westdale.
Q. Campello on the north, I take it, and Westdale on the south?
A. Yes.
Q. What street crosses the Matfield railroad crossing?
A. Matfield Street.
Q. Matfield Street crosses and comes over onto the eastern side of that railroad. What happens to the street?
A. It is a fork in the road, and it bends to the right.
Q. Matfield street bends to the right?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it at the left?
A. Belmont Street.
Q. Belmont Street and Matfield Street fork; and on the right it is Matfield and on the left it is Belmont after it gets over the crossing on the easterly side of the railroad?
A. Yes.
Q. Now that afternoon, I am speaking of the afternoon of the shooting, was your attention directed to any automobile that approached that crossing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time of day did that occur?
A. 4.15.
Q. How do you know it was 4.15?
A. As the train was supposed to get there about 4.10, and the train was a little late, and I noticed the clock said 4.15.
Q. From which direction was the train coming?
A. From Westdale, from the south.
Q. From the south?
A. Campiallo.
Q. Brockton or Boston? Did you see the train approaching?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where were you when you saw that train approaching?
A. Sitting in the,-by a window in the shanty.
Q. Had you seen any automobile at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I got up to see if there was any automobiles coming, and I saw an automobile up the street.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went out to stop it.
Q. What did you have with you, if anything?
A. "Stop" sign.
Q. What is a stop sign?
A. It is a sign that says "Stop" on it, with a handle.
Q. Where did you go, to what point or position?
A. I went directly out into the middle of the street.
Q. Which side of the railroad track?
A. On the east side, first.
Q. Is that the same side your shanty is on?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you observe about that automobile? Tell us from what direction it was coming and how it was coming?
A. It was coming from West Bridgewater and coming at a pretty fast rate of speed and so fast that it kicked up the dust and made me think it was coming pretty fast.
Q. What happened as you stood there with your sign at the side of the track?
A. Why, I had to walk across the track onto the west side and as I saw this automobile wasn't going to stop, it didn't have time enough get by ahead of the train. I had my sign in my hand, and as they approached they did not seem to want to stop then.
Q. Yes
A. And one of them in the automobile asked me, "What to hell I was holding him up for?" He pointed his finger at me, and they were talking amongst themselves, and seemed quite anxious to get by.
Q. Where were you when that man spoke to you?
A. I was on the west side of the track, in the middle of the road.
Q, Where was the automobile then?
A. Up the street about 4O feet away from there.
Q. Was the automobile stopped, or was it in motion at that time?
A. It was,-the engine was running, but it had come to a stop.
Q. Where was this man that spoke to you?
A. He was on the seat, aside of the driver.
Q. On which side of the seat would that be?
A. My facing the automobile, it would be on the left-hand side.
Q. That is, as you stood looking at the automobile?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It would be on which side. Just indicate with your hand, will you?
A. The left-hand side.
Q. On that side of the machine?
A. Yes.
Q. And as the men were sitting in the machine facing you, on which side of the machine was it?
A. It was on the right-hand side of the machine.
Q. It would be on the right-hand side of the machine?
A. Yes.
Q. On which seat of the machine?
A. On the front seat.
Q. What did you notice about that machine?
A. It was a large machine, dark colored.
Q. Did you notice anything about the top?
A. The top was up.
Q. About the sides, the curtains?
A. I did not notice the sides at all.
Q. Now, after that, -well, strike that out, please. At what time, at what point of these operations did the train go by?
A. The train went by between the automobile and myself, because I stepped between, back to the side where the shanty is.
Q. That is, after this man had spoken to you you stepped back onto your side, the shanty side of the crossing?
A. Yes.
Q. The train went by?
A. Yes.
Q. Then what did you see?
A. This automobile came by, and they swung up aside of the shanty, and he pointed his finger at me again.
Q. Who?
A. And he says, "What to hell did you hold us up for?” And they beat it down the street and went down Matfield Street.
Q. Was it the same man who had spoken to you before, or a different man?
A. This is the same man.
Q. How near was he to you when he made that second remark to you by your shanty?
A. Within about four feet of the doorway.
Q. Was the machine standing still or was it moving?
A. It was moving.
Q. You say you saw the machine go down Matfield Street?
A. Yes.
Q. As you stand by your shanty and look across there, which fork of the road was Matfield Street?
A. That right-hand side.
Q. The right-hand fork?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see the machine again?
A. Yes, sir. It came back on the left-hand side.
Q. And what do you mean by the left-hand side?
A. It came down the left.
Q. The left road?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say that street was?
A. Belmont Street.
Q. How long after you noticed it going down the right fork down Matfield Street did you see it coming down the left fork, Belmont Street?
A. About three minutes.
Q. How was it traveling at that time?
A. At a fast rate of speed.
Q. What did it do?
A. It went over the crossing, up towards Bridgewater again.
Q. Where did you last see it?
A. It got out of sight up over Matfield.
Q. How far can you see up the road towards West Bridgewater from your shanty or station?
A. About an eighth of a mile.
Q. How many men, do you know, were in the machine.
A. Five.
Q. Will you describe the appearance, the personal appearance of that man who spoke to you those two times?
A. He was a dark complected man, kind of hollow cheeks, with high cheek bones, had a stubbed mustache. And kind of a stubbed mustache, bushy. His hair was black.
Q. Do you remember how he was dressed?
A. He had a slouch hat on, dark, dark slouch hat, and a dark suit.
Q. Have you ever seen that man since that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you see him after that time?
A. Brockton police station.
Q. When did you see him there?
A. About three weeks after he was arrested.
Q. Do you see that man in the court room now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where do you see him?
A. To my left.
Q. Where is that?
A. Right there [indicating].
Q. Where is he sitting?
A. The man with the first arm off the side of the cage.
Q. In the cage?
A. Yes.
Q. You refer to Vanzetti?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you sure he is the man you saw that day at Matfield?
A. Yes.
Q. Any doubt in your mind?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you notice the driver of the car?
A. What I noticed of the driver was that he was a kind of a thin-built man. He was squatted down in behind the steering gear so you could not see very much of him. He was a small man, appeared to be.
Q. Can you tell us how large a car this was?
A. Five-passenger car.
Q. What color, did you see?
A. Dark color.
Q. Do you know what make of car it was?
A. It was what I call a Buick.
Q. How do you judge it to be a Buick?
A. By its shape and style.
Q. Have you ever seen that car since, as far as you know?
A. Yes,
Q. Where did you see it?
A. Down to Plymouth.
Q. When did you see it down there?
A. At the trial.
Q. I do not mean,-I meant, just what date? I will put it this way: How long after you saw it in Matfield did you see it there, just roughly?
A. Why, two or three months.
Q. When did you learn about the shooting at South Braintree?
A. A couple of nights afterwards.
Q. A couple of nights afterwards?
A. Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS. You may inquire.
Cross-examination.
Q. [By Mr. Jeremiah MeAnarney.] How old are you?
A. Twenty-one.
Q. How long have you been a station tender at Matfield crossing?
A. How long had I been?
Q. At the time, last April, or a year ago last April?
A. About three weeks.
Q. What were you doing before that?
A. I was doing odd jobs outside, around.
Q. Around, near your home?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let us see, your home was where?
A. In East Bridgewater.
Q. Now, the automobile, when you first saw the automobile that you have described, it was coming down grade, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your attention was attracted by the train, first?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You looked up. Did you see the train?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw the train, and then you in the usual performance of your duty, took your stop sign, the round circular disk?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the word "Stop" on it, in your hand, and stepped out?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time, where was the automobile?
A. It was up the street.
Q. What is that?
A. It was up towards West Bridgewater, about one eighth of a mile.
Q. An eighth of a mile. How far was the train away when you saw it?
A. This train that was going north, coming from the south?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Practically the same distance.
Q. About the same distance?-
A. Yes, sir.
Q. ---away. About an eighth of a mile?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you got out on the street, or you got out in the tracks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Double track there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You got between the tracks, I assume, put up your sign-
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The train passed between you and the automobile?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far from the rails did the auto stop?
A. About forty, feet.
Q. So the automobile came to a stop forty feet before it came to the tracks?
A. Yes.
Q. The automobile had been coming fast when you saw it, hadn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Raising quite a cloud of dust?
A. Yes.
Q. You could see that dust all over the car?
A. [No response audible to stenographer.]
Q. You are not answering.
THE COURT. You must answer the question.
Q. Answer the.queation, yes or no. There was dust all over this car, wasn't there?
A. I couldn't say whether there was any dust on the car or not. I know there was dust in the street when the automobile went through, but-
Q. Well, did you notice this automobile, whether it was dusty or not?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. What kind of looking car was it?
A. Dark color, the car.
Q. Was there any dust on it?
A. I did not notice.
Q. You say it was dark colored,-whether it was dirty or dusty, you do not know?
A. No, sir.
Q. You mean by that it was, generally speaking, a sort of dark colored car?
A. Yes.
Q. Whether it was covered with dust, you do not know?
A. No, sir, I did not notice.
Q. But you know that eighth of a mile, as the car came down there, it was raising a cloud of dust as it came along?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, if you were not in court and you were telling your friends, you would say you think that car was pretty well covered with dust, wouldn't you?
MR. KATZMANN. Wait a minute.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. You don't want-
MR. KATZMANN. I don't want that question.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I will put it a second time.
THE COURT. I will exclude that.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. All right.
Q. Well, now, in court, with that car that is coming up that road in cloud of dust you have described, does that help you to say whether or not that was a clean looking ear or a dusty car?
A. It might have some on it, but I didn't notice it.
Q. Very well. What color clothes did the man have on on the front seat. You did not get a good look at but one, did you?
A. No.
Q. The one nearest you?
A. Yes.
Q. We will take him for a minute. What color clothes did he have On?
A. He had a dark suit on.
Q. How did it appear, new or an old suit, worn out suit, or what garment did it look like?
A. It wasn't a new suit, by any means.
Q. Just tell us in your own way here, to these men here, how it appeared to you. You say it wasn't new. A. It was a common ordinary suit, that is all I can say, dark colored.
Q. Was it dusty?
A. Why, it was not bright.
Q. You have ridden over those West Bridgewater roads, haven't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If you ride over those roads with a dark suit on, it would look kind of light colored, won't it, kind of mixed up?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, please.
Q. Have you ridden over those roads with a dark suit on?
A. I never happened to wear a dark suit.
Q. A suit like the one you got on?
A. You don’t call that dark, do you?
Q. I haven't looked it over very carefully.
THE COURT. You better not ask counsel questions.
Q. If you rode down that street that that automobile came down that day with that suit, you would get it very well covered with dust, wouldn't you?
A. Well, I never happened to ride down that street with this colored suit on, so I don't know.
Q. You couldn't form any opinion of that, could you? Do you mean that? Was the man that you saw on that front seat of that car, weren’t his clothes all dusty?
A. I wasn't looking for dust on the man's clothes. I was looking at his face.
Q. Was there dust on his face?
A. His face was dark.
Q. Was there dust on his face as you looked at his face? You said you were looking at it?
A. No, I didn't see any dust.
Q. So there was no dust on his face that you could see?
A. No, not on the dark face, I don't think.
Q. Well, on the face you looked at?
A. No, sir.
Q. The face you looked at did not have the appearance of having dust on it, did it?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. What is your answer, please?
A. [Witness hesitates.] No.
Q. No. What kind of a hat, cap or head gear did this man have on that was nearest to you that pointed at you?
A. A slouch hat, dark color.
Q. Derby or felt?
A. What is that?
Q. Slouch hat, soft hat, or a derby?
A. Soft hat.
Q. Soft hat? With a broad brim or narrow?
A. Medium rim on it.
Q. What is that?
A. Medium rim on the hat.
Q. How about the appearance of that hat? Would you say it was brown or black?
A. It was a dark color.
Q. A dark color. Was that dusty?
A. It was dull looking.
Q. What is that?
A. It was dull looking.
Q. Dull looking. Did that look like an old hat or good shaped hat that was dusty?
A. No, it looked like an old hat.
Q. It looked like an old hat this man had on?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, the question was, it looked like an old hat or a newer one that was dusty? It did not appear to you to be particularly dusty, did it?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that so far as you now have in mind in answering these questions as to the picture you saw that day at Matfield, neither the clothes of the man or face of the man or the hat that he wore appeared to you to be dusty. That is true, isn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Neither have you now any recollection that it was a dusty car?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you?
A. No, sir.
Q. The sides of the car, the left-hand side of the car,-the right-hand side of the car passed next to you. Am I right? Or the left? Which?
A. The right-hand side passed me.
Q. The right-hand side of the car passed next to you. How were the curtains on that side of the car?
A. I did not notice the curtains.
Q. Were the curtains up or down?
A. I did not notice.
Q. Haven't you any idea whether this car which passed you three times had the curtains up or down?
A. No, sir, I did not look at the curtains.
Q. Well, you looked at the car and you looked at the man right in the car, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't- it somewhere in your mind any recollection whatever as to how the curtains in that car were?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, apparently, these men were in a hurry, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. Their car is stopped forty feet away from the rail and it is up grade.
A. [No response audible to stenographer.]
Q. You don't answer. It is up the grade from the rails to where the car is stopped, isn't it?
A. Down grade when they are coming down.
Q. But I said from the rails to the car is up grade?
A. Yes.
Q. And from the car to the rails it is down grade. You are right. So when they started up, they came down grade over the rail, didn't they?
A. Yes.
Q. And by the time he hit the rails in that forty feet he was going pretty fast, wasn't he?
A. No.
Q. He was going slow?
A. Why, he was moving right along.
Q. Moving right along. He got about all the momentum he could get in that forty feet, didn't he, apparently? Or does it strike you he lingered slowly along there? Which is it?
A. No, he went a moderate rate of speed.
Q. You think he was driving moderately, then?
A. Until he swung up to my crossing and then swung out again, then he went fast.
Q. Swung out?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Swung out from what to what?
A. When he came over the track, he kind of swerved in and mentioned, "What to hell did you hold us up for?" And then went down Matfield Street.
Q. The man that spoke to you was not driving the car?
A. No.
Q. He did not swerve anything did he? He sat on the right-hand side?
A. They swung the car,--the chauffeur.
Q. "They." He didn't, did he?
A. No. The chauffeur swung it in.
Q. The car came to the right, you say, nearer to you?
A. Yes.
Q. When the car got over those two tracks there was a "V" in the road, wasn’t there?
A. Yes.
Q. It could keep swinging to its right or swing to its left?
A. Yes.
Q. That is a short distance over the rails?
A. Yes.
Q. Which way did this car go, to the right or left?
A. It swung to the right.
Q. So that as he came down toward the rails he bore to the right?
A. Yes.
Q. When he appeared again, he appeared from the left?
A. Yes.
Q. But his right,-to the left as you are looking toward him?
A. Yes.
Q. Am I, right? How long was the car gone?
A. Well, about three minutes.
Q. Where were you? What did you do after this car went by?
A. Standing in the shanty.
Q. What were you doing when the train first attracted your attention?
A. Sitting down in the chair.
Q. Were you reading?
A. No, sir.
Q. You were seated in a chair. This car, this automobile goes by. How long had that automobile been standing there, do you think, before the train passed in between?
A. About a minute.
Q. About a minute?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that if you had not stopped the automobile, it could have got across the track before the train?
A. No, sir, it couldn't.
Q. You don't think it could go that forty feet in a minute?
A. Why, the train had stopped there. I thought the question was whether it stopped.
Q. Did the train stop at this station?
A. Yes.
Q. Oh, I beg your pardon. When your train was slowing up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, then, when I say to you, if this train was slowing up and this car was only forty feet away and there was a minute's interval, would that automobile have not crossed there in that forty feet in less than a minute?
A. The way I understood you was how long was it that the train stood there at the depot?
Q. What is it?
A. I understood you asked the question how long the train stopped at the depot.
Q. You misunderstood me. I did not ask you that question.
A. I said "a minute."
Q. Going back again, I asked you how long the car was there before the train came down?
A. Not but a very few seconds. I had time enough to step in front of the engine. That was all.
Q. Well, then this car started right up immediately as your train went by?
A. Yes.
Q. And passed in the rear of the train?
A. Yes.
Q. About as soon as it could?
A. Yes.
Q. And proceeded. Now, it comes back. Is it going slow coming back?
A. The automobile.
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir.
Q. Is it going fast?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the driver is next to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the driver say anything to you?
A. No.
Q. Did you see the men in the rear?
A. Only saw that there was men in-the rear.
Q. About how many men were in the rear seat?
A. Three.
Q. Two in front?
A. Yes.
Q. Three men in the rear seat?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the man who spoke to you before, he was over on the right-hand side, the further side from you? A. Yes.
Q. Does he say something to you?
A. Not when he is coming back.
Q. Doesn't say anything. All right. What happened next?
A. They went up over the track and then went out of my sight, up towards West Bridgewater.
Q. That all?
A. Yes, sir
Q. So that he only spoke to you once?
A. Twice, as I mentioned, when he was coming to the crossing and when he, swung up to go out down Matfield Street, and I understood you just to say-
Q. After he got over the crossing?
A. Yes.
Q. And when he was swinging out to the right?
A. Yes.
Q. He again said something to you?
A. Yes.
Q. "What are you holding us up for?"
A. Yes.
Q. Did you answer him?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. How far away was the car then when he asked you that?
A. About five feet.
Q. You say-that is the second time, I mean?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You say that when he swung out to go up West Matfield,--did you say West Matfield?
A. No.
Q. What was that you said?
A. When he swung up to go down Matfield Street.
Q. When he swung up to go down Matfield Street he called out again to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Does he swing to go to Matfield Street five feet from the rail?
A. Five feet from the railroad crossing,-the shanty.
Q. They made the curve there as quick as that, five feet from the shanty?
A. They just swung in, that is all.
Q. You said that when he swung to go to Matfield Street he spoke to you the second time. Is that true? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far is the place where you swing to go to Matfield Street from the shanty?
A. About-your question was, how far is it?
Q. How far where you swing to go up Matfield Street to the right, how far is that from the shanty?
A. The way that-
Q. About how far is where you swing to go up Matfield Street from the shanty? Tell us that in feet, to the best of your judgment?
A. Now, you are speaking of the fork of the roads?
Q. I am speaking of what you have answered to my question. The place where you swing to the right to go up Matfield Street, how far is that place from the shanty?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, if your Honor please. Matfield Street, I think perhaps my brother has not the thing in mind. Matfield Street, as it goes over the crossing-
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I am taking his answer. I am trying to keep his answer in my mind. I have told him where he answered. He has answered me that where it swung to the right.
THE COURT. This is what you have in mind, Mr. McAnarney? You asked him at one time how far the automobile was from him the second time the man asked him this question.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That is one of the things I have in mind.
THE COURT. I think he answered that, five feet.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. No, that is not what I have in mind by this question at all.
THE COURT. It isn't?
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. All right.
Q. You have answered me, have you not?
[The witness's testimony is read beginning with the question:
"Q. All right, what happened next?" down to the question:
"Q. I am speaking of what you have answered to my question. The place where you swing to the right, to go up Matfield Street, how far is that place from the shanty?"]
Q. To clear the situation, what is the name of the street? You have said there is a fork?
A. Yes.
Q. One is Matfield Street, I take it, and the other is what?
A. Belmont Street.
Q. Matfield and Belmont. Swing to the right would be Matfield, and to the left would be Belmont?
A. Yes.
Q. How near was the man to the junction of those two streets when he called out the second time?
A. About eighty feet.
Q. About eighty feet from the junction of those streets. How far is the junction from the railroad track? A. Practically the same distance.
Q. Practically the same distance. So the second time he spoke to you he was on the railroad track practically where he was the first time?
A. The first time he spoke to me?
Q. Yes.
A. He was forty feet the other side of the railroad track.
Q. Before he started his car then he called out to you and wanted to know what you were holding him up for, before the car started?
A. That was when he was bringing his car to a stop, on the other side of the track.
Q. Then I have misapprehended your evidence. Before the car came -the automobile came to a stop, at all, he called out to you, "What are you holding us up for?"
A. Yes.
Q. I see. Then as he started going and as he was crossing the rails, again "What did you hold us up for?” A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you were doing,-you had gone over to your shanty by the time the car came back again? A. Yes. I was in the shanty.
Q. You were in the shanty. No conversation the second time? No remarks of any kind?
A. No, sir.
Q. What is that?
A. No, sir.
Q. How often do the trains run at that hour of day?
A. There is a train at 4.10. The next one is about twenty minutes to five.
Q. And this was what train, what train was this you are now telling about, the time?
A. 4.10.
Q. This was the 4.10 train to Boston, due 4.10 at Matfield?
A. Yes.
Q. I see. Now, isn't it somewhere in your mind,-can't you tell us whether, as you looked through that car, whether the curtains were up or down? Haven't you any recollection whatever?
A. No, sir.
Q. None whatever?
A. No, sir.
Q. So the impression you got of the situation is not vivid or clear enough to enable you, to tell us anything about that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or the appearance of the men in the car, other than the man who made the remark to you?
A. That is all.
Q. He did not raise his hat and take off his hat to you or anything?
A. No, sir.
Q. His hat was on his head all the time, as he went along by?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. A fairly broad brimmed hat?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The top of the car up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when was it that you were brought to see any man, to see if you could identify him as the man who was in that automobile? When was it?
A. Along the first of May.
Q. Along the first of May?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The following May?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, where?
A. The Brockton police station.
Q. Who went with you?
A. I went alone.
Q. You were sent for? You were sent for?
A. No, sir.
Q. What is that?
A. No, sir.
Q. You went out of idle curiosity?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did any one meet you at the depot?
A. No, sir.
Q. You walked up to the Brockton police station?
A. From where I got off the car at School Street.
Q. You came on the electrics?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You went from School Street to the police station?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you ever been there before?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had any one spoken to you about this matter before?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that no one knew that you were coming to the Brockton police station?
A. No, sir.
Q. You thought you would do a little detective work of your own. Is that right?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. That is right, isn't it?
A. [Witness hesitates.] Yes.
Q. Yes. Well, did you introduce yourself when you went into, when you got to the police station and
told them who you were and what you wanted?
A. Not at first.
Q. Well, what did you do first?
A. Why, I asked to see the two defendants that were there.
MR. WILLLAMS. Just keep your voice up a little bit. I could not hear. To see what?
THE WITNESS. The two defendants that were there.
Q. Who did you ask that of?
A. The officer.
Q. Did he ask you what your business was?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was the officer?
A. I do not know his name.
Q. Where did you have to go to see the defendants after you made that request?
A. I was told to go into a room. They brought the two men into the room.
Q. Do you see here in the building anywhere the man whom you made this request of?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. While you have been in attendance at court here have you seen him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you seen him again since that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. At the police station.
Q. At Brockton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In connection with this case?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long after that day when you went up there and this officer spoke to you was it you saw that officer again?
A. At different times I have seen him when I go up there.
Q. Go up where?
A. To the police station.
Q. Does your business take you to the police station very often?
A. Takes me by there once in a while.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. Once in a while in the doorway.
Q. Once in a while in the doorway? Have you spoken to him about the matter since that first day?
A. No, sir.
Q. Very well. When you were taken into a room, was that room down lower or on the floor you entered there at Brockton?
A. It was on the floor I entered upstairs.
Q. And he came in? Let us see. Tell us just how that was. I do not want to lead you. I do not know what the facts were. You go into a room and they bring some one in or he brings some one in, or there is some one in the room when you go in?
A. He brings the two into the room.
Q. He brings two men into the room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Two Italians?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, he wasn't an Italian man, this officer, was he?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you were looking for an Italian, weren't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that when you went up there, you wanted,--and the picture in your mind you wanted to find was the face of some, Italian man?
A. The face I wanted to see was the face of the one I had seen.
Q. Would you kindly answer my question, please. It was the face of an Italian, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the two men brought in to you were Italians, weren't they?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What did the other man look like? What did the other man look like?
A. He was a medium height man, medium build, round face, medium color hair, brown.
Q. Medium colored, brown hair. Well, now, did they tell you, who that man was, that other man? Were you given to understand who he was?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you understand that he was Sacco?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they give you any understanding as to who he was?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw they were Italians, both of them?
A. Yes.
Q. You judged that from their appearance?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did these two men converse together anytime, the two men who were brought in for you to look at? A. No, sir.
Q. How long were you in the room with them?
A. Not over a minute.
Q. Did you leave the room first, or they?
A. They.
Q. Did the man have his,-did the men have their hats on or bare headed?
A. Bare headed.
Q. Did they have a hat or cap in their hands?
A. No.
Q. When next did you see the man you called the defendant?
A. At Plymouth.
Q. Where was he then?
MR. KATZMANN. Mr. McAnarney-
[Mr. McAnarney confers with Mr. Katzmann.]
Q. But I say, you saw them at Brockton. You saw them at Plymouth. Did you ever go over,-well, perhaps you don't know that. Were you ever at the Dedham jail?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you ever in this court building before you came to attend at this trial?
A. No, sir. Except the Grand Jury. I was on this trial.
Q. Then you did appear before the Grand Jury?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see either of these two men when you were here on the Grand Jury?
A. I do not know whether they were or not.
Q. What?
A. I do not know whether they were there or not.
Q. They were where?
A. At the Grand Jury.
Q. Well, my question was, did you see them when you were here at the Grand Jury?
A. I don't remember.
Q. How many days were you over here?
A. One.
Q. Were you over here the last day when they were brought in to plead or not, do you remember?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Well, you never asked to see this man Vanzetti with a hat on, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. You never asked to see him with a dark hat on, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. What kind of clothes did he have on when you saw him at Brockton?
A. A dark suit.
Q. How was he dressed otherwise?
A. He had a shirt on that was, -a soft collar attached to it.
Q. A soft collar, dark coat, vest, trousers, no hat?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did it seem to you like the same suit of clothes you saw on the man at Matfield station?
A. They looked the same.
Q. Looked the same to you. Just what are you doing now? What is your work now?
A. Lining cutter.
Q. Where are you employed?
A. Barney, Capeman & Denham's.
Q. Where is that?
A. 89 Montello Street.
Q. You have no desire or ambition to become a detective, have you?
A. No, sir.
Q. You live with your folks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they know you were leaving home and going over to Brockton to look at this man?
A. No, sir.
Q. I meant to ask you, have you seen, while you were with any of the officers, any photographs purporting to be the photograph of Mr. Vanzetti?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have not seen or looked at any photographs in that line?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or seen the photographs of any person purporting to be connected with that matter at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you seen the photographs in any papers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you see a photograph in a paper?
A. After I had been out to the Police Station.
Q. Do you know how many days after the arrest of the men it was that you went up there?
A. Two or three.
Q. What is that?
A. Two or three days.
Q. Two or three days. Do you take any papers down there at Matfield?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Hadn't you seen pictures in the papers the day after the arrest of Vanzetti?
A. No, sir.
Q. And Sacco. You had not seen them at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw them when you got to Brockton sometime that day?
A. I saw them that night, I believe.
Q. I thought you said you did see them at the police station?
A. I did not see any pictures at the police station.
Q. No. Did you see them in Brockton?
A. No.
Q. Saw them after you got home?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get them?
A. They were in the papers before hand.
Q. They were in the papers beforehand? You mean, in that day's paper?
A. I do not know just what day's paper it was in.
Q. Where were you when you saw that paper?
A. At home.
Q. Well, you had not seen it before?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that it is fair to assume that you were at Brockton to identify these men on the day that their photographs came out in the paper. That is correct, isn't it?
A. I believe their photographs had been in the paper before I went to see them.
Q. Yes, you know they had, don't you?
A. I didn't see them.
Q. Well, you knew the photographs had been in the paper before you went to Brockton, don't you?
A. I had not heard about them, seen them.
Q. You realize that is not the question I am asking you. Will you answer the question I am asking you? A. I will.
Q. Please do.
A. What was the question.
[The question is read.]
THE WITNESS. No.
Q. What did you mean when you just said they had been in the papers before you went to Brockton?
MR. KATZMANN. One minute.
THE COURT. Read that, and see if he said so. [The witness's testimony is read.]
Q. They were in the papers beforehand?
THE COURT. He has not said yet he saw them beforehand.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I have not indicated that he has, have I?
THE COURT. I thought that was what your question was. (A portion of the witness's previous testimony is read.]
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Now, it is agreed it is in there he has said they were in the papers beforehand.
MR. KATZMANN. I ask to have him read the next answer, please.
[The answer is read as requested.]
Q. Now, explain in any way you want to your answer there, "They had been in the papers beforehand." What do you mean by that?
A. Well, when I came to see the pictures in that paper, I noticed what date they were in the paper.
Q. And from that you-
A. It was the previous date from the day I was looking at it when I was up to the police court.
Q. So that their pictures were in the daily papers, the day before you went to the Brockton police
court, weren't they?
A. A day or two before.
Q. A day or two before. You were interested in this case, weren't you?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. You were, weren't you?
A. Not until after I saw the defendants.
Q. Not until when?
A. Not until after I had been up to the police station.
Q. You were interested enough to go up there, weren't you, and leave your home in Matfield and go there?
A. I happened to be up in town, so that is why I happened to go to the police station.
Q. Is that the reason you now give, you happened to be up in town and you went to the police station, just simply a happening?
A. Well, I was up town on business, and I went over there to see them.
Q. You were interested enough to go over to see them, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You had no idea the men that were up there were the men you saw, did you, until you saw them, did you?
A. No.
Q. What is that?
A. No.
Q. What did you mean a few minutes ago by telling me that when you went up to Brockton to look at the men you went to look at Italians? What did you mean by that answer?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
THE COURT. You may answer, please.
THE WITNESS. I had heard that they were Italians.
Q. Is that your answer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that when you left Matfield and went up to Brockton, you now say that you heard they were Italians. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It isn't the fact that you saw men in the automobile that made you think they were Italians, is it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Oh. Then it is the fact that you saw men in the automobile is the reason why you say you thought they were Italians, isn't it?
A. As there being Italians in the automobile and hearing that they had Italians held, I wanted to see them.
Q. You wanted to see them? Then my question and your answer is, that when you went up there from Matfield the men you were looking for were Italians, isn't it, then you went to look for Italians, you expected to find Italians, didn't you?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
Q. You did, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you mean, then, when you said that you did not know they were Italians until you saw them there? Didn't think they were Italians until you saw them there?
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, please.
THE COURT. Find where he has said that.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Read me where he said something about--
[A portion of the witness's previous testimony is read.]
Q. Now, you had no idea that the men that were at Brockton were the men you saw when you started to go to Brockton that day, had you?
A. No.
Q. You had no idea, and therefore you did not know whether they were Italians or not, do you leave it that way?
A. Only, what I had heard, that they were Italians.
Q. And you had heard they were Italians, hadn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had read in the papers they were Italians?
A. No, sir, I heard that on the way coming up in the electric ear.
Q. Do you take the daily papers at your home?
A. Yes.
Q. You read them sometimes, don't you?
A. Yes. But last night I did not read them.
Q. I am not talking about last night. I am talking about Tuesday. You did not read the papers much that week, did you?
A. No.
Q. When did you first learn about the shooting? When did you first learn about the shooting, Mr. Reed? A. I heard something about it the night before I went up to the police station.
Q. You had not seen a thing about it in the papers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had not seen or read a single line about this matter until the night after you went to the police station? A. No, sir.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you talked with anybody down to your home or down to Matfield about this shooting?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that, well,then, until you got up to Brockton you did not know anything about it. Is that right?
A. Why, only what little I had heard.
Q. When did you hear it?
A. In this store, the night before.
Q. Then you knew about it the night before?
A. I did not know where it happened.
Q. Didn't they have a paper there?
A. I didn't notice particularly what they were talking about there.
Q. Did they have a newspaper there?
A. They may have.
Q. Do you know whether they did or not?
A. They have papers there.
Q. Do they sell papers there?
A. No, sir.
Q. They have papers there. What store was it?
A. Cobb's' store.
Q. Who were you talking with?
A. I was talking with different ones there, but not on that subject at all.
Q. Do you remember who you were talking with there that night, please?
A. No, sir.
Q. You say you were not talking with any one that subject at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you did not say anything about that subject, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did somebody else say something about that subject?
A. All I heard was something about a shooting incident. That is all I got.
Q. You did not know where it had taken place?
A. No.
Q. Whether it was in Hanover?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or Lawrence?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or Haverhill?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or Springfield?
A. No, sir.
Q. And that is all you knew when you started for Brockton. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did some one talk with you on the electric cars going up, about the shooting? What say?
A. A little bit.
Q. Did they have a paper?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you talk with on the electric car? Some friend of yours, some one you know, or a stranger? A. A fellow I know.
Q. What is his name, please? What is the name of the man you talked with, please?
A. Frank Chandler.
Q. Frank Chandler?
A. Yes.
Q. Where does he live?
A. In East Bridgewater.
Q. Frank Chandler, East Bridgewater. What does he do?
A. Work in a store.
Q. Did he go to the police station with you?
A. No.
Q. He told you something about it, did he?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. Why, nothing that I recollect.
Q. What is that?
A. Nothing that I recollect.
Q. Did he tell you where it happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you recollect that, then. He told you it happened where?
A. South Braintree.
Q. What else did he tell you?
A. [Witness hesitates.]
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. Perhaps I am trespassing on your Honor's time.
THE COURT. No, I think we will sit tonight until half past four. I am afraid I may have to prolong our hearings every day.
Q. Now, is there anything you can say he told you other than that?
A. No.
Q. When you went to the police station, did you know anything other than what he had told you?
A. No.
Q. What time did you go home that night to East Bridgewater, to your home?
A. I had to get back to work at half past four.
Q. Do you know Mr. Stewart?
A. Yes.
Q. You have talked with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Several times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you first begin talking with Mr. Stewart about this matter?
A. I don't just remember when it did happen I talked with him first.
Q. You have been talking with him pretty frequently lately, haven you?
A. No, sir.
Q. When did you last talk to him?
A. Oh, a month or more ago.
Q. Now, you got off this day, did you, from your work?
A. No, sir.
Q. You were working this day or not?
A. I went to work at half past one.
Q. Your hours, you have the forenoons off?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I see. That there may be no misunderstanding, was the day you were at the Brockton court the day of a hearing in the Brockton court or anything of that kind?
A. No, sir, I never was at Brockton court. It was at the Brockton police station.
Q. The police station?
A. Yes.
Q. I don't know now that you have in any way fixed that day. Is there any way you can help us with that date?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can you tell us the day of the week?
A. No, sir.
Q. Saturday or Monday?
A. No, sir.
Q. The first of the week or last of the week?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long after the shooting was it? Well, perhaps you have helped us. You say it was the day after the photographs appeared in the papers. Is that right?
A. A day or two, I should say.
MR. KATZMANN. One moment, please.
THE COURT. He is trying now to get a date.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. I want a date.
THE COURT. I think he is entitled to it if he can get it.
THE WITNESS. I said a day or two after.
Q. A day or two after the photographs of some men, alleged bandits, appeared in the papers. Is that right? A. After they arrested them, a day or two after, I mean.
Q. A day or two after they arrested them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, I am speaking now about the photographs.
A. I do not know how long those photographs had been in the papers before I went there.
Q. Well, how long before you went there, if you did, was that that you saw them?
A. Ask that question again.
Q. That might be puzzling. Strike that out. It is a double header. If you saw those photographs before you went to Brockton, how long was it?
A. I did not see them.
Q. You had not seen the photographs at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you see the photographs after you came back from Brockton?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How soon?
A. After I got home.
Q. What paper was that in?
A. An Enterprise.
Q. The Brockton Enterprise?
A Yes.
Q. It came that day? It wasn't in your house the day before?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. How do you know?
A. Why the paper was an old paper, anyway.
Q. But you had not seen these photographs?
A. No, sir.
Q. And the old paper had been in your house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you had been talking about this case, you had heard people talking about it, but it is clear in your mind you had not seen those photographs until after you came back from Brockton?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. JEREMIAH McANARNEY. That is all.
MR. WILLIAMS. Mr. Moore, any questions?
MR. MOORE. I think not, your Honor. I do not think of any question, but I would like to have this witness back here in the morning, but I am not certain-
THE COURT. I would like to finish with this witness tonight if we can. I want the other side to finish to-night if they will. Of course, if there is any particular thing, Mr. Moore, that you may desire about which
no inquiry has been made, or fully made, by notifying the District Attorney, the witness may return, but concerning anything that has been covered fully by Mr. McAnarney, it would seem unnecessary to go over such matters again. I give you that right, and if you can finish with this witness tonight, Mr. Williams, I would like to have it done.
MR. WILLIAMS. Do I understand, Mr. Moore, you have no questions to ask him?.
THE COURT. Not now.
MR. WILLIAMS. [Continuing.] Unless you wish to have him re-called for some particular reason.
MR. MOORE. Well, I have already made my statement to the Court.
MR. WILLIAMS. I simply wanted to see if I understood it.
MR. MOORE. I am not entering into any stipulation. I simply stated to the Court in entire frankness I had no examination I desired to make at this time, only by reason of some other matters- we may desire to take up some matter that has not yet been covered.
THE COURT. All right, that is all right.
MR MOORE. I am not stipulating, though.
THE COURT. Well, I was making a suggestion that any matters that have been fully covered by Mr. Manarney, further time ought not to be taken up concerning those matters. Anything that has not been covered fully, you give notice to the District Attorney, Mr. Moore, that you would like to have the witness return, the witness may return at that time. If you do not give such notice, then the witness may be excused for good.
MR. WILLIAMS. I should naturally excuse the witness tonight.
THE COURT. You may excuse the witness tonight. If Mr. Moore desires to have him recalled at any later time, you, will kindly see that he is here.
MR. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Redirect Examination.
Q. [By Mr. Williams.] Have you been interviewed by Mr. Reid for the defendant?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. One day late this spring, late last winter.
Q. Late last winter?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember when?
A. Why, along in January, something like that.
Q. Did the gentleman have a stenographer with him?
A. No, sir.
Q. How long did he talk with you?
A. Fifteen or twenty minutes.
Q. Where did he talk with you?
A. In the Matfield depot.
Q. Did you give him a statement of what you knew about the case?
A. Just what he asked me I answered.
Q. That is what I mean.
THE COURT. That may be blind. A statement might mean some written statement.
MR. WILLIAMS. I did not mean that.
Q. I mean, did you reply to whatever questions he asked you regarding the case?
A. Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS. That is all.
THE COURT. You may go. We will adjourn.
MR. MOORE. Just may I ask one question?
THE COURT. All right.
Re-Cross-Examination.
Q. [By Mr. Moore.] The man that spoke to you in the car spoke in a clearly,-from a point how far away was he when he spoke to you?
A. About forty feet, the first time.
Q. About forty feet?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have in mind, by agreement with counsel, this point back here that has been measured off as about thirty feet. I take it that we can agree that you have in mind about this row of people sitting back here as your estimate of forty feet. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
THE COURT. He said "'Yes, sir."
Q. And his salutation to you was in a loud, bold voice, in the English phraseology that you saw fit to give, something I believe to the effect, "What in hell did you stop us for?"
A. Yes, sir,
MR. KATZMANN. One minute.
Q. Is that right?
MR. KATZMANN. I object.
THE COURT. You assumed quite a good many things in the question before you got to the conclusion.
Q. Is that what he said to you?
THE COURT. That may stand.
A. Yes.
THE COURT. The rest may be stricken out.
Q. And the voice was loud and full and strong back forty feet. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With a running motor?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And a train passing,--approaching?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The quality of the English was unmistakable and clear?
A. Why,-
Q. Is that right? Answer yes or no. What?
A. Yes.
Q. When you went to the Brockton police station, did you ask this man that you saw there to speak to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever heard him speak?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You say you have?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?
A. At the Brockton police station.
Q. Brockton-
A. Police station.
Q. You mean, that he spoke to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. And who did he speak to?
A. The officer that brought him in.
Q. In other words, some one brought him in and he spoke to this officer. Is that what you mean to say, the two of them standing side by side?
A. One man was brought in ahead, and the other back of him.
Q. And they spoke to them?
A. The defendants did not speak to each other.
Q. And do you claim that you identified the voice?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say in the Brockton police station?
A. I do not remember what he did say.
Q. You do not remember what he said?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember whether he said anything or not?
A. No, sir. He just spoke anyway.
Q. What did he say?
A. I don't know.
Q. You were there, to hear and see, weren't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had come all the way from your little home down there to hear and see, had you?
A. Yes.
Q. That is what you came for, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. You haven't any recollection of what he said?
A No, sir.
Q. Whether it was good morning or good night?
A. It was not either of those.
Q. "Thank you"?
A. No, sir. Not that.
Q. What was it?
A. I couldn't say what it was.
Q. Any idea in the world what he said?
A. No, sir.
Q. Whether it was "Good night," or whether it was a comment on the weather, or what not?
A. No, sir.
Q. It was a conversational tone?
A. It was that same gruff tone that he used in speaking to me.
MR. MOORE. That is all.