Mary E. Splaine, Sworn.
Q. (By Mr. Williams.) What is your full name?
A. Mary E. Splaine.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 11 Kane Street, Brockton.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Bookkeeper.
Q. Bookkeeper?
A. Yes.
Q. For what concern or what individual?
A. Slater & Morrill, South Braintree.
Q. You have been with them for sometime?
A. 12 years.
Q. Were you employed as bookkeeper by Slater & Morrill on April 15th of last year?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time where was the bookkeeper's office or room where you worked?
A. It is in the southeast corner of the building, on Railroad Street.
Q. On which floor?
A. The second floor.
Q. Is that the factory and office building of Slater & Morrill in the railroad yard, so to speak?
A. Yes.
Q. In the square there made by the railroad station. And your room was up on the second floor?
A. On the second floor.
Q. Do you know how many windows there are in that room?
A. Six.
Q. And on what sides of the room are they?
A. There are three on the east and three on the south.
Q. The south would be toward Pearl Street, the end of the building?
A. Pearl Street, yes.
Q. And the east would be out in the court yard or square there, towards the
A. Facing the railroad.
Q. Did you know Frederick A. Parmenter?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know Berardelli, Alessandro Berardelli?
A. I spoke to him once.
Q. You knew them both by sight, anyway?
A. Oh, yes, indeed.
Q. Did you see either or both of those gentlemen at any time that day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember what time you saw them?
A. I saw both of them after dinner. I think it was a little before three o'clock.
Q. What were they doing then?
A. They were both standing close to Miss Mahoney's table.
Q. You saw them in the factory?
A. Yes, they were in the office.
Q. I would assume they were getting the payroll?
A. I think they were getting ready to depart at that time.
Q. Did you see them outside the building at any time thereafter?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. About 3 minutes past 5, I saw them.
Q. What?
A. I mean 5 minutes past 3.
Q. You mean 5 minutes past 3?
A. 5 minutes past 3.
Q. What were they doing then?
A. They were walking on the railroad tracks then.
Q. Have anything with them?
A. Yes, sir, each one had a-
Q. Tell the jury what each had and what you saw them do.
A. Each one had a large box and after passing a few steps on the railroad tracks they passed onto the crossing. From the crossing they went in a slanting direction across the street so that it would bring them just about near the first entrance to Rice & Hutchins' office.
Q. I presume it is fair to say at some time they disappeared behind that fence there, didn't they?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were they, Miss Splaine, when you last saw them as they went behind the fence?
A. It would be about just before you would get to the corner of Rice & Hutchins' building that projected onto Pearl Street.
Q. After you saw them go down the street there, what did you next see or hear in reference to the case we are now trying? A. I heard some shots, which sounded like back firing from an auto.
Q. How many did you hear? Have you an idea?
A. I heard seven or eight altogether.
Q. After you heard them, what did you do?
A. I stood up in the middle of the office, and then I walked to the window on the south side.
Q. Which window is that? Can you state in the picture, or doesn't that show?
A. It is right here (indicating), this window, that window right there (indicating).
Q. You are pointing to the corner window on the Pearl Street side on the second story?
A. Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS. (To the Court.) If your Honor please, so you may follow the testimony, the witness is pointing to this window there (indicating).
THE COURT. Let me put on my other glasses. I can see better then.
MR. WILLIAMS. She is pointing to this window there. Here (indicating) is the railroad station. Here (indicating) is the cobbler shop. Here (indicating) is Pearl Street.
THE COURT. I remember.
(Mr. Williams shows picture to the jury.)
Q. Was it open or closed?
A. That window was closed.
Q. How far from that window could you see toward the Rice & Hutchins building?
A. You mean the distance?
Q. I do not mean in feet, no, but what objects could you see from that window, going down Pearl Street towards the east? A. I could see the wooden factory of Rice & Hutchins, and I could see a portion of the brick factory. That is, the back portion of the brick factory.
Q. Could you see the railroad crossing?
A. I could see to the,well, by standing just close to the window you could see to the second track, but if you peered out the window close you could see almost across the entire track.
Q. From that position which I understood you took, what did you see?
A. I saw an auto as it was approaching about the second track, just about leaving the crossing, come up Pearl Street.
Q. What did you see happen in regard to that auto?
A. When it was half way between the crossing and the corner of this street here on the corner-
Q. When you say "this street here" what do you mean?
A. Pearl Street and Railroad Street here on the corner. When it is half way between the crossing and this point here (indicating) there was a man appeared on the side of the machine.
Q. Which side?
A. The right hand side.
Q. What did you see him do?
A. The first thing I noticed was a hand on the front side of the auto and then his body from the waist up appeared outside the machine.
Q. What did he do, if anything?
A. He was looking in the direction of the cobbling shop.
Q. Anything else he did?
A. I did not notice anything else he did.
Q. What can you say as to the car at that time, what you observed a about the car?
A. I took it to be a touring car.
Q. How large a car?
A. From the length of it, I think it must be a 7-passenger.
Q. What do you say about the tops or curtains?
A. The top was up. The back curtains were up but the curtain between the back seat and the middle seat was not buttoned down. That was where the man appeared, between those two places.
Q. Where was this man in reference to the front seat? I am going to show you some pictures of the car here and ask if any of them represent approximately the way the curtains looked on the car that day. I am not asking you as to the top of the machine, but simply as to the curtains and if none of them are as they were that day, why, just say so.
A. (Witness examines pictures.) As I saw the car, the curtains toward me were the side, that would be next to that, to this curtain here (indicating).
Q. Hold it up so the jury can see. Now, repeat what you said.
A. This farther side of the auto was the side that would be towards me. The back curtain, the curtain was up on that side around here (indicating), but this curtain on that side was not buttoned down. It is where the body appeared, the form appeared.
Q. Perhaps we can get a picture that will illustrate a little better what you mean to say. Take the picture which shows the side of the auto, which I take it was toward you. Can you tell better by that, what youmean by that picture?
A. This (indicating) would be the way it appeared to me, but this curtain here (indicating) was not buttoned down. It was in this space here where the man's body appeared, right where this curtain is.
Q. Where that first curtain is?
A. Yes, sir, the first curtain right there (indicating). That curtain was not buttoned down. In this place was where the man's form appeared.
Q. Did you see that man that appeared at that place?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you describe him to these gentlemen here?
A. Yes, sir. He was a man that I should say was slightly taller than I am. He weighed possibly from 140 to 145 pounds. He was a muscular,-he was 'an active looking man. I noticed particularly the left hand was a good sized hand, a hand that denoted,strength or a shoulder that-
Q. So that the hand you said you saw where?
A. The left hand, that was placed on the back of the front seat, on the back of the front seat. He had a gray, what I thought was a shirt,-had a grayish, like navy color, and the face was what we would call clear-cut, clean-cut face. Through here [indicating] was a little narrow, just a little narrow. The forehead was high. The hair was brushed back and it was between, I should think, two inches and two and one-half inches in length and had dark eyebrows, but the complexion was a white, peculiar white that looked greenish.
Q. How long was he in your view, do you know?
A. Now, the distance that it took him to travel from the middle of the street, from the middle of that distance to that corner.
Q. You say "The middle of the distance." You mean what?
A. The middle of the distance between the railroad track and the corner of Pearl and Railroad streets.
Q. That is practically to the cobbling shop that is on the corner of Pearl and Railroad, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see that man after that?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. I saw him in the police station in Brockton.
Q. When was that?
A. That was three weeks after the murder.
Q. Who accompanied you there, do you remember?
A. I went down myself from the factory, but I believe I was sitting with Miss Devlin.
Q. Was Mr. Wade there that day?
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. I want you to look around the court room and see if you see in the court room the man that you saw that day in the automobile?
A. Yes, sir, the man sitting nearest to me on this side of over there.
Q. Where?
A. On this side.
Q. of what?
A. What do you call it, a cage?
Q. On the side of the cage?
A. Yes.
Q. The man with the mustache, or the man without the mustache?
A. No, sir, the man without the mustache.
Q. Iis that the same man you saw at Brockton?
A. It is.
Q. Are you sure?
A. Positive.
Q. Did you hear any shots fired as the car came from the crossing to the corner?
A. I do not remember that. I did not hear,-I do not remember hearing them.
Q. Did you see the crossing tender at any time?
A. No, sir, I did not notice him.
Q. Could you tell how many men were in the auto?
A. I only saw one.
Q. You did not see any others?
A. No, sir.
Q. And that one was the man you have just described?
A. It is.
Q. And pointed out to us. Do you know the name of the man you just pointed out to this jury?
A. Well, I have learned it since.
Q. What is the name you learned?
A. NicolaSacco.
MR. WILLIAMS. You may inquire.
Cross-Examination.
Q. [By Mr. Moore.] Miss Splaine, you are the bookkeeper for Slater & Morrill?
A. I am one of the bookkeepers.
Q. And on this day in question, April 15, the first thing that attracted your attention was the discharge of what you thought was the automobile or motorcycle on the street. Then you looked out the window. Is that right?
A. No, sir, I did not, I did not right away.
Q. That was the first thing that attracted your attention to anything on the streets?
A. No, I heard that first.
Q. And then you looked out after?
A. No, sir, a young lady in the office said, "There is shooting." Then I did not move just at that time. I was hurrying to get through my work. She said, "They are looking out of Rice & Hutchins." Then I stood up.
Q. Then you looked out of the window that gave you a view towards Pearl Street over the cobbler shop to the angle from it. Is that right? A. I did not look over the cobbler's shop. I looked down the street. I can see over the corner of the cobbler's shop roof. That is, the lower corner.
Q. That is what we understand. At that time had the automobile passed the gate on the side towards Rice & Hutchins?
A. Not when I first went to the window.
Q. It was approaching the gate at that time, was it?
A. Not when I first went to the window.
Q. Where was it when you first looked out of the window?
A. I did not see it when I first looked out of the window.
Q. Wasn't in sight at all, then?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you saw it approach and come into vision, did you, into the range of your view?
A. Yes, sir, as it was leaving the crossing it came into my view.
Q. Did you see anybody standing on that corner before the car came?
A. No, sir, I did not look at the corner.
Q. Did you see anyone below the gate tender's shanty and the entrance to the Rice & Hutchins yard?
A. No, sir, I saw nobody.
Q. Before the car came along?
A. No, sir, I saw no one.
Q. Does that mean that there wasn't anyone there or that you did not see them, which?
A. I did not see anyone.
Q. You do not know whether anyone was there or not?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not see anyone?
A. I did not see anyone.
Q. There might have been a dozen people, so far as your knowledge goes, but, at any rate, if there were, you did not see them?
A. I did not see anyone there.
Q. Now, your eyes,-this is all before the car came in sight, isn't it? You do not know whether there was anyone in the range of your vision before the car came in sight?
A. I did not see anyone before the car came in sight.
Q. What were you looking at before the car came in sight?
A. The street.
Q. Yes, but you could not see the shooting, could you?
A. I did not see the shooting.
Q. You were looking to see the shooting?
A. No, sir.
Q. You were looking down the street to see where the shooting came from, weren't you?
A. No, sir. I did not know it was shooting.
Q. Where the sound came from?
A. I did not know it was shooting then.
Q. Well, you were looking down the street to see what was happening, weren't you?
A. I just stood there to look, well, yes.
Q. Yes.
A. Not to see what was happening. No, I will take that back. I did not look to see what was happening, because I did not know anything was happening.
Q. Well, you had been told that. First, you heard a sound, then the young lady said, "They are all looking out of Rice & Hutchins windows," and then you looked out, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you do not know whether there was anyone in the shoe yard or around the crossing by the railroad track?
A. There wasn't a soul in sight when I looked out that window.
Q. Not even in the windows of Rice & Hutchins?
A. I did not look into the windows of Rice & Hutchins.
Q. At any rate, there wasn't anyone on the ground around there?
A. No, sir, there was none on the ground.
Q. Then the car came in sight?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was there anyone at the gate when the car came in sight?
A. I wasn't looking at the gate.
Q. You do not know, then, whether there was anyone there or not?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. You could not tell whether there was anyone around that corner at all or not? A. I did not see anybody there.
Q. You know Mr. Lavangie?
A. I know him by sight.
Q. You did not see him there?
A. I did not see him.
Q. You have seen him every day for years, have you not?
A. No, sir, I hadn't. I don't look out the windows, as a usual thing.
Q. You see Lavangie pretty nearly every morning when you get off the train, don't you?
A. No, I don't see him every morning.
Q. You see a gate tender?
A. No, I do not look for the gate tender every morning.
Q. At any rate, you did not see anyone on that corner?
A. No.
Q. Or anybody in the yard?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor anybody in the windows?
A. No, I did not see them in the windows.
Q. When the car came into the range of your vision, it passed directly between you and the gate tender's shed, didn't it?
A. In a slanting line, yes.
Q. Right square so it cut your view off for the second of the gate tender's shed, didn't it?
A. Yes, sir, it would.
Q. And still you could not tell whether there was anybody at that gate or not?
A. No, sir, I wasn't interested in looking at the gate.
Q. And you did not see any man there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Attempting to lower the gate?
A. I did not look at the gate.
Q. Now, you were concentrating your eyes on the car, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. Did you get the number of that car?
A. No, sir.
Q. And did you see the name plate on the front end of that car?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then all you got was a vision of the car and then you were satisfied?
A. Why, no, I watched it out of sight.
Q. You watched the contents of the car from then on, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, did you see the man driving the car?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. Well, the top was up and the man leaning over the front seat would obstruct my vision so I could not see anybody on the front seat.
Q. In other words, the man in front obstructed your view of the man driving the wheel, sitting at the wheel?
A. No, sir.
Q. As I understand your testimony, Miss Splaine, you said that the reason that you could not see the man sitting atthe wheel of this car was because between you and that man was the body of another man?
A. Also, the top of the machine was up.
Q. Well, the point is, though, that there was a man between you and the driver of that car?
A. This man's body obstructed my view of anybody who would be on the front seat.
Q. Was that in the front or the rear seat he obstructed your view?
A. He was between the front and the-he was between the rear seat and the front seat.
Q. Now, you mean,-that is rather a difficult position that you are putting this gentleman in?
A. He was standing.
Q. Where was he?
A. There is a back seat in an auto, and there is a front seat. There is a space in between. He was standing in. the space in between.
Q. There is the back of a front seat-
MR. KATZMANN. One moment. I ask that the witness be permitted to finish her answer.
THE COURT. She hasn't quite finished, it would seem. If you haven't finished your answer to that question, you may proceed.
THE WITNESS. The man was standing in the space that is between the back seat and the back of the front seat.
Q. In other words, this man was on the back of the front seat. Is that what you mean?
A. He was leaning against the back of the front seat.
Q. Leaning against the back of the front seat?
A. Yes, sir, standing behind the front seat.
Q. Standing up?
A. Yes, standing up.
Q. Now, you had never seen any of these-this man, previous to this occasion, had you?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. He was an utter and complete stranger to you, in so far as April 15, was concerned?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You state that he had a gun in his hands?
A. No, sir, I did not say so.
Q. Well, did he?
A. I did not see his right hand.
Q. Which hand was it that was on the back of the front seat?
A. The left hand.
Q. The left hand?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he doing with his right hand?
A. I did not notice what he did with his right hand.
Q. Was it inside or outside the car?
A. I couldn't tell you where he had his right hand.
Q. Will you say he had nothing, as far as your knowledge goes, in his right hand?
A. I did not see the right hand.
Q. What?
A. I did not see the right hand.
Q. It was, then, inside of the body of the car?
A. I do not know where his right hand was.
Q. What kind of a suit of clothes did he have on, light, dark or what?
A. I took it to be a gray shirt.
Q. A gray shirt? A
A. A gray shirt. That is all of his outfit I saw.
Q. Could you tell the character of the outer coat?
A. He did not have an outer coat on. It was what I thought a gray shirt.
Q. No coat at all?
A. No.
Q. What kind of a-do you mean a gray woolen shirt?
A. One of those, yes, one of those gray woolen shirts that men wear.
Q. A necktie around that?
A. No, sir, I did not notice a necktie.
Q. A hat?
A. No, sir, no hat.
Q. Bareheaded?
A. Bareheaded.
Q. He -was the only one you could see at all in the car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So far as you know, aside from him the car was empty?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You could not see behind him?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor forward of him?
A. No, sir.
Q. And you did not see him at all at any time longer,-at that time longer than the period that it would take that car to run from a point approximately, we will say, in there [indicating], the range of your vision being cut off by this high board fence-your recollect there is a high board fence there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the longest you had any opportunity to observe was the period it took that car to run from there to a line drawn from that window over the corner of the shed. Is that correct?
A. Is that place that is marked-
Q. This is the cobbling shed. A. Is that place marked?
Q. This [indicating] is the end of the Hampden house.
A. That is not what I mean. That end over there is the Hampden house, but is this end the railroad track?
Q. This (indicating] is the railroad track.
A. It was half the distance between the railroad track and the corner of Pearl and Railroad streets.
Q. You understand here [indicating] is a high board fence there that runs along here [indicating]?
A. That board fence is not on the side of the railroad track from which I saw the automobile emerging. It is on the opposite side.
Q. Then the car continued to remain in your view from that general point over to a line that would be drawn from that window over to the corner of the cobbler shop?
A. Is that the corner of Pearl and Railroad streets?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, that is the corner, then.
Q. And that would be, in the general neighborhood of, for rough purposes, at this time, of somewhere between 80 and 100 feet, 80 to 120 feet?
A. I can't remember accurate.
Q. But is that a fair representation of the approximate distance the car remained within your vision?
A. The distance would be longer than the back of the court room from me.
Q. From me across the court room, say?
A. A little further than the back of the court room.
Q. And it was running at what speed?
A. Well I should say slowly, slowly.
Q. You don't attempt to estimate the speed?
A. No, sir, I do not estimate.
Q. Well, now, this man leaning against the forward seat of the car, back of the forward seat of the car, I understand you to say he was not firing anything?
A. I did not see him fire. He was not leaning against the front seat of the car. He was leaning out of the car. He was steadying himself against the front seat.
Q. That is, with his back to the front seat or side or what?
A. He was facing out slanting from the car.
Q. Then his both hands were inside of the body of that car, were they?
A. I saw his right hand,-I mean, his left hand, inside the car. I do not know anything about his right hand.
Q. Do You remember testifying on the preliminary examination in this case as follows, in response to questions asked, I believe, by counsel, by Mr. Adams?
MR. KATZMANN. The page?
MR. MOORE. Page 50. At the bottom of page 50. "A. He stood there with one hand resting on the front seat and the other hand discharging."
A. No, sir, I never said that in Quincy.
Q. What?
A. No, sir, I never said that.
Q. Well, now, I want to be entirely fair. This is your name, Mary E. Splaine?
A. Yes.
Q. You were questioned there by Mr. Adams?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is the official transcript made by Sadie E. Thomas, 1416 Hancock Street, Quincy. Now, You were questioned as follows: "Q. You weren't at that window?" Do you remember that question?
A. What window?
Q. Well, I will go back a little further in order to get the entire occasion. "Q. Tell what you saw and heard. A. My attention was called by the young lady saying, 'They are looking out of Rice & Hutchins,' and somebody said, 'Get the number.' I went to look out of the window that faces on Pearl Street, but Miss Devlin was in the window at that time. So I looked out the first window on the Pearl Street side which gave me a view of the crossing until my view was cut off by the garage and cobbler shop on the corner."
THE COURT. Do you remember testifying that way?
THE WITNESS. No, sir. I did not testify that way.
Q. You did not so testify?
A. I said the car from the time it left, it was emerging from the tracks until it came to the corner. I may have said the cobbling shop cut off any further view of the car.
Q. This transcript, you state, is an incorrect transcript of what you said below?
A. As far as the right-hand end of that is concerned, I never at any time said I saw that man's right hand.
Q. All right. "Q. That cuts off the view on the right towards Washing-ton Street. A. There is another window which looks out onto Pearl Street." You remember so testifying?
A. Yes, there is the window.
Q. You were at that window?
A. I looked out that window.
Q. And then you answered: "A. I looked at that again when they said 'Get the number.' I went to the first window on the railroad side, an'd, not being able to get a view, went to the Pearl Street side. At first nobody was there. Then, as the machine traveled half the distance between the railroad track and the sidewalk next to the office building, I saw this man leaning towards the right of the machine, with one hand on the front seat as if to 90 over from the back into the front. He stood with one hand resting on the front seat and the other discharging."
A. I never said he was discharging a gun.
Q. What was he doing?
A. He had one hand, the left hand was on the back of the front seat supporting him. He was leaning out the car window and at no time have I ever said I saw that man's right hand.
Q. His left hand was on your far side, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. His left hand was on the same side,--on the side of the driver of
the car, wasn't it?
A. It ought to be.
Q. Yes, it naturally would, wouldn't it?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. No question about that. That is, his left hand would be on the same side as the driver of the car?
A. It should be.
Q. So that his body should have been between him and his left hand, shouldn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes. How was it you saw his left hand and could not see anything of the right hand?
A. Because I saw his face, and I watched that, and I did not look for the right hand.
Q. Did you say that you,-do you wish now to say that this report is incorrect?
A. That report is incorrect so far as my saying I saw his right Hand. I never saw it. I never said so.
Q. It is also incorrect on the next page of the same transcript; "Q. Have you seen this defendant before?" And you answered, "Yes." And then this question: "Q. Where?" And you answered, "A. I am almost sure I saw him at Braintree, but I saw him at the Brockton police station afterwards." Is that incorrect also?
A. I saw him at South Braintree first.
Q. Did you tell the court below that you were "almost sure"?
A. I won't say that I did.
Q. You won't say that you did not, either?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. "Q. Your opinion is he bears a striking resemblance to him? A. I could be mistaken." You remember so testifying?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "Q. You are not sure that he is the man? A. No."
A. No, I did not say that.
Q. You did not say you weren't sure?
A. No.
Q. I want to be entirely fair with you, Miss Splaine. "Q. You are not sure he is the man? A. No."
A. I did not make that answer.
Q. You did not make that answer?
A. No.
Q. At any rate, these matters that I have directed your attention to in your testimony are all matters of error in the record?
A. Those things to which I have taken exception are errors.
Q. Including this statement: "Q. Do you say this is the man? A. I will not swear positively he is the man. Q. You did not get a sufficient look to say positively this is the man? A. I would not swear positively he is the man."
A. I did not answer that question that way.
Q. Do you want to say that this is not a correct transcript of your testimony?
A. I should say that was an incorrect transcript of that answer.
Q. Have you read your testimony since the preliminary examination?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Haven't seen it at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. So that you do not know but what the entire transcript is erroneous?
A. It might be, for all I know.
Q. The only things, Miss Splaine,-by the way, you did not see anyone, did not see this man that you now claim to identify until some 21 or 22 days thereafter, did you?
A. Three weeks after.
Q. Three weeks after. And then you were taken to the Brockton police station in the presence of,-taken down there by police officers?
A. No, sir, I was not brought by any policeman.
Q. Well, you went down there.
A. Yes, I went.
Q. There you and a number of others were shown the defendant. Is that correct?
A. I saw him before I was asked to look at him.
Q. Well, I mean you saw him in the Brockton police station?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you knew you were down there for the purposes of identification?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was the only man that was brought in to you at that time?
A. He was the second one that was brought in.
Q. The other person being the defendant Vanzetti?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was Vanzetti brought in first?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then the defendant Sacco brought in?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you knew you were down there for the purpose of identifying him?
A. To see if I ever saw them before.
Q. Then at that time I believe I am correct in saying that you had some degree of quite natural uncertainty?
A. I wasn't uncertain.
Q. Positive about that?
A. I was so positive that I said if he didn't have a twin brother it must have been him.
Q. I say, have you ever expressed any uncertainty in this matter?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not even in the Quincy police court?
A. I said that.
Q. I say, have you expressed uncertainty in this matter? You have or have not?
A. I do not know what you mean by 'uncertainty" in your mind.
Q. Did you say at any time on the preliminary examination in this matter, either in fact or in substance, "I will not swear positively he is the man"?
A. I said that I would-
Q. Answer my question, please, yes or no.
A. I did not make that remark that way.
THE COURT. We will take a recess of five minutes.
[Short recess.]
Mary E. Splaine, Continued.
Q. (By Mr. Moore.) Miss Splaine, the nearest point that this automobile was to you at any time, I take it, is the straight line down your street to Pearl Street?
A. What would be the corner of the railroad street and Pearl Street, that is the nearest point.
Q. The closest line would be down this way (indicating plan)
A. I can't tell much about a map.
Q. This is the Hampton House. You are familiar with that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know Pearl Street runs out this way?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know Pearl Street coming out this way, and you know the Hampton House standing right here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is a little cobbler shop?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your closest view would be down here?
A. Right on the corner, yes, sir.
Q. Now, what do you estimate that distance to be?
A. I should say the distance would not be as far as the back of the court room from me. Not quite as far as that.
Q. Would you say something in the neighborhood of from 80 to 100 feet?
A. Oh, it wasn't as far as that.
Q. Would you say from 35 to 40 feet?
A. It would be nearer forty.
Q. What?
A. I think it would be nearer the forty.
Q. If you stated 40 feet in the trial below, you would be repeating that statement that you made, 35 or 40 feet in the preliminary?
A. I don't remember just what I did say.
Q. You said 35 to 40 feet. A. I should say it was just about that, 40 feet.
Q. The map reveals, as prepared by the Commonwealth, a minimum distance of 80 feet, based on the distance that you made it, on a straight line-
MR. WILLIAMS. Are you quite correct there in making that statement?
MR. MOORE. I am figuring 20 feet to the inch, and I am figuring from the window here. You can figure it yourself.
MR. WILLIAMS. From there to there is less than three inches.
MR. MOORE. That is to the corner. To the far side of the street it is 41/2 inches; to this point it is four inches.
MR. WILLIAMS. It is four inches.
MR. MOORE. Four inches. All right. Somewhere between 60 and 80 feet.
MR. WILLIAMS. No; somewhere less than 60 to 80 feet.
MR. MOORE. All right.
Q. Now, where do you put that automobile? I mean, with reference to the roadway?
A. It was close to the sidewalk.
Q. To the left or right hand side going west?
A. Going west?
Q. Going up the street.
A. The right hand side.
Q. Close to the right hand side going up?
A. Close to the
Q. To the cobbler shop?
A. It was close to the cobbling shop.
Q. Not on the center of the street?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not on the curve in the center of the street, the ridge?
A. No. It was quite close to the sidewalk.
Q. Was it in that position when it came across the railroad tracks?
A. I think it was more in the center of the road when it was on the railroad tracks. It seems it was more in the center then.
Q. Then you think it swung from the left to the right of Pearl Street, is that your testimony?
A. I think it did.
Q. Now, the man that you saw, you say he had a gray shirt, and that his- What kind of shoulders do you say that he had?
A. Those shoulders, well, they were straight out, square, well, like yours.
Q. You would say that he had a square-cut type of shoulders, is that what you want to say?
A. They were more like what your shoulders are.
Q. And his height?
A. Well, I should think he was a little taller than I am.
Q. Weight?
A. I should think perhaps 145 pounds.
Q. Now, all this data that you are giving to the jury relative to the formation of his shoulders, his weight, is all based on what you saw while that car was running some 50 or 60 feet, some 60 or 80 feet away from you and on the ground below your windows?
A. On the vision I got of him during that time.
Q. And you never had seen the man you claim to have seen in the car before in your life?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. And you never saw him again until you claim you saw him some 21 days thereafter?
A. I saw him that day.
Q. You make no claim that you saw him from that time until some 21 days thereafter?
A. Not from that time....
MR. MOORE. That is all.
(By Mr. McAnarney.) Miss Splaine, you really did not have sufficient opportunity to observe that man to enable you now to say that you recognize him, did you?
A. Yes, sir, I think I did.
Q. Do you mean that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From the time you saw that man on the day of this awful tragedy you felt right in your own heart and conscience that you had sufficient opportunity of observation to enable you to say that this is the man?
A. I felt that he was the man.
(Conference at the bench.)
Q. You answered that last-you answered the question by stating that you felt that you did have sufficient opportunity to identify this man?
A. I felt that it was possible to make a mistake, but I never admitted that I ever made a mistake or do make a mistake.
Q. My question is: Do you fell that you had sufficient opportunity, time of observation and position of observation, that you feel you had opportunity sufficient to say that this is the man?
A. Yes, sir, I think I did....
Q. I understand you to say, Madam, that you saw Sacco, or you saw a man whom you have identified, a man's form, leaning out of a car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the right hand side of the car?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were up in the second story window?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That man, the only position he has with reference to that car is holding himself by his left hand being against the back of the front seat?
A. Yes, sir....
Q. That left hand in on the back of the front seat, you looked from the second story at this automobile going 18 or 20 miles an hour, and firmly imbedded in your mind was that the left hand was a strong hand?
A. Yes, it did. It looked like a strong, powerful hand.
Q. I understand that you did not see the other hand at all?
A. No, sir, I did not see the right hand at any time.
Q. Now, after the shooting, you were examined first when by someone connected with the police department?
A. I talked with Mr. Green of the Pinkerton Agency in Boston.
Q. When?
A. The Saturday following the murder.
Q. When next?
A. The next time was on the Monday following, with Mr. Hellier of the Pinkerton Agency.
Q. Were both in Braintree?
A. No, sir; one was in Boston and the other was in Brockton.
Q. When next were you interviewed?
A. Mr. Scott brought me some pictures to the office to look over.
Q. And was Mr. Scott alone when he brought the pictures to the office?
A. There-was another State detective, I don't know his name.
Q. About when was that time?
A. That must have been within a week of the tragedy.
Q. When was the next time?
A. The next time was in Proctor's office in Boston.
Q. When was that?
A. At the same time I looked at the pictures.
Q. The same time that you looked at the pictures in Braintree?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you see pictures in Captain Proctor's office?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was with you that day?
A. Wade, Mr. Bostock, a young Italian fellow, I think his name was Frantello.
Q. Frantello, Wade, Bostock and yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Who else besides Captain Proctor, representing the police department, was there?
A. I knew someone else there.
Q. Who?
A. Sherlock.
Q. Edward Sherlock?
A. Yes, sir. I knew who he was, but I am not acquainted with him.
Q. While you were there you were shown some photographs?
A. Yes, sir, pictures.
Q. You picked out a certain photograph?
A. There was
Q. Pardon; yes or no.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you pick out a photograph?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You identified that photograph as the photograph of the man you saw leaning out of the car?
A. No, sir, not in detail.
Q. Not in detail?
A. No.
Q. Did you not say, "There, I think that is the man that I saw leaning out of the car"?
A. He had some of the features, but not all.
Q. Pardon. Can't you answer that question yes or no?
A. No.
Q. Did you not say, Madam, in substance, that the features of the man on one of the photographs shown to you were in substance the features of the man that you saw leaning out of the car?
A. They were a striking resemblance to the man.
Q. That is what you said?
A. Yes,-a "striking resemblance."
Q. Didn't you put it a little stronger than that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you sure your words were "striking resemblance?"
A. I am quite sure, yes, sir.
Q. Later you learned that man was in Sing Sing at the time of this -I don't know the word he used, but you learned it was not Sacco?
A. I learned the man was not at large.
Q. The man whose photograph you picked out as a striking resemblance to the man leaning out of the car you learned later was in some other jail for some other offence? You learned that, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir, I did....
THE COURT. We will stop here until tomorrow morning at ten o'clock.
(Adjourned until 10:00 a.m., Friday, June 10, 1921.)
NINTH DAY
Dedham, Mass., June 10, 1921.
Mary E. Splaine, continued.
Q. Now, at the last of my examination of you yesterday, I asked a question which I am not clear how the record left it. I was then interrogating you about your opportunity or chance of observing this man, and I read to you quite a number of questions before that question that you might get the drift of the interrogation, and I read now this question, too.
MR. KATZMANN. What page, Mr. MeAnarney?
MR. McANARNEY. The bottom of page 57.
Q. "You don't feel certain enough of your own position to say he is the man?" And your answer, "I don't think my opportunity afforded me the right to say he is the man." Well, now, did you so testify in Quincy?
A. I think I did say.
Q. You think you did?
A. Yes, I think I did.
Q. And you were telling the truth then?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And you meant to tell the truth?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And when you used those words, "I don't think my opportunity afforded me the right to say he is the man," you meant it? A. Yes, Sir, I did.
MR. McANARNEY. That is all, Miss Splaine.