Tuesday, July 28, 1885
THOMAS MC KAY, sworn
Examined by MR. ROBINSON:
Q. Mr. McKay, where do you live?
A. Prince Albert.
Q. You were born in this country?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived in Prince Albert?
A. I have been in Prince Albert district since July 1873.
Q. You remember, of course, the disturbance which took place in March last?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me when you first heard of that, and when you first took any part in consequence of it?
A. I had heard of the agitation for some time in the early part of March. I heard that the prisoner was inciting the half-breeds to take up arms.
Q. Well?
A. On the morning of the 20th, Capt. Moffatt and Capt. Moore came to my house between two and three o'clock in the morning, and they brought a letter from Major Crozier stating he had been informed on good authority that the French, under the leadership of the prisoner, had risen and taken Mr. Nash and some other prisoners and had robbed the stores of Walter and Baker, and Kerr Brothers. He also, in the same communication, asked for a detachment of some sixty or seventy volunteers to go up and reinforce the police at Fort Carlton.
Q. Well?
A. I went down to the town and went to a number of the people there and told them what we had heard and asked them to meet us in James Elliott's rooms in town. We met there and decided - we thought that we could not spare the number of men as we had to look after the town and our families. We went out with something like forty men. Capt. Moore enrolled about forty men and we started about 2 o'clock in the afternoon of that day.
Q. For what place?
A. Fort Carlton.
Q. How far was Fort Carlton from Prince Albert?
A. Between forty and fifty miles.
Q. When did you get to Carlton?
A. We arrived at Carlton between ten and eleven o'clock that night.
Q. What day was that?
A. The 20th.
Q. Fort Carlton was then held by a force of mounted police under Major Crozier?
A. Yes.
Q. You reported to him?
A. Yes, reported to him.
Q. Did you remain there that night?
A. When I arrived there, I found Mr. Mitchell, from Duck Lake, was at Fort Carlton. He had a letter from Mr. Riel, I believe. The letter I think was regarding the surrender of Fort Carlton. I did not see it. When I left Prince Albert, I had decided to go on to Batoche's where the rebels had made their headquarters. When I found Mr. Mitchell there, he asked me to go along with him that I might be of some use.
Q. For what purpose did you decide to go to Batoche's?
A. To see if I could point out to them the danger they were getting into in taking up arms. I knew a great many of them were ignorant and did not know what they were doing, and I thought I might induce them to disperse. I went to see if I could be any use in preventing any outrage. An hour after I got there we went to Duck Lake and we found two or three of Riel's men there, Joseph and Baptiste Arcand. They had come from Batoche to meet Mr. Mitchell. I had a long conversation with them, and I invited them and tried to induce them to drop the movement. I told them at the same time that I had enrolled as a volunteer, that I was one of the first to put down my name as a volunteer, and at the same time I told them that anything they should say I should report to the commanding officer, and if there was anything they did not wish me to hear they should prepare themselves accordingly. After an hour or two's conversation with them, they went on to report at their headquarters that I was coming with Mr. Mitchell.
Q. They went before you to report that you were coming?
A. Yes.
Q. What took place?
A. We arrived at the river about eight or nine o'clock in the morning.
Q. You had travelled all night?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not arrive that night?
A. No. When we got to the river I found a number of armed men around Walter and Baker's store. A sentry hailed us and took us to the guard.
Q. How many armed men did you find?
A. Twelve or fifteen outside. There were some more in the store.
Q. They took you to the guard?
A. There was a sentry about fifteen or twenty yards on this side of the store.
Q. Did he stop you?
A. He stopped us and took us on.
Q. Do you know his name?
A. No.
Q. Where did he take you to?
A. To the guard that was stationed around Walter and Baker's store.
Q. Well?
A. Philip Garriepy came out and said he was deputed to show us across the river.
Q. You were then on the north side of the river?
A. Yes. He got into the sleigh and took us across to their council room.
Q. Where was their council room?
A. The council room at that time was a little building just south of the church. I do not know who it belonged to. It is burned down now. It was just near the church.
Q. Whom did you find in the council room?
A. A number of men.
Q. Armed?
A. Yes; they were armed.
Q. These twelve or fifteen men you have referred to, were they armed?
A. Yes. Philip Garriepy was not armed but the rest were. We went into the council room and I went around the table and among them, and finally was introduced to the prisoner. That was the first time I had seen him.
Q. Where were you introduced to him?
A. In the council room.
Q. You say that was the first time you had seen him?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were in the council room when you were introduced to him?
A. Quite a number. They were moving out and in.
Q. Would you say there was a dozen men in the room?
A. Yes, more than that.
Q. Who introduced you to the prisoner?
A. Mr. Mitchell introduced me to Mr. Riel as one of Her Majesty's soldiers.
Q. That is, Mr. Hillyard Mitchell?
A. Yes. I shook hands with Mr. Riel and had a talk with him. I said, there appears to be great excitement here Mr. Riel. He said, no; there is no excitement at all, it was simply that the people were trying to redress their grievances, as they had asked repeatedly for their rights, that they had decided to make a demonstration. I told him that it was a very dangerous thing to resort to arms. He said he had been waiting fifteen long years, and that they had been imposed upon, and it was time now, after they had waited patiently, that their rights should be given, as the poor half-breeds had been imposed upon. I disputed his wisdom, and advised him to adopt different measures.
Q. Did he speak of himself at all in the matter?
A. He accused me of having neglected my people. He said, if it was not for men like me their grievances would have been redressed long ago; that as no one took an interest in these people he had decided to take the lead in the matter.
Q. Well?
A. He accused me of neglecting them. I told him it was simply a matter of opinion, that I had certainly taken an interest in them, and my interest in the country was the same as theirs, and that I had advised them time and again, and that I had not neglected them. I also said that he had neglected them a long time, if he took as deep an interest as he professed to. He became very excited, and got up and said, you don't know what we are after - it is blood, blood, we want blood; it is a war of extermination, everybody that is against us is to be driven out of the country. There were two curses in the country - the Government and the Hudson Bay Company.
Q. Yes?
A. He turned to me and said, I was a traitor to his Government; that I was a speculator and a scoundrel, and robber and thief, and I don't know what all.
Q. He used very violent language to you?
A. Yes. He finally said it was blood, and the first blood they wanted was mine. There was some little dishes on the table, and he got hold of a spoon and said, you have no blood, you are a traitor to your people; your blood is frozen, and all the little blood you have will be there in five minutes, putting the spoon up to my face and pointing to it. I said, if you think you are benefitting your cause by taking my blood you are quite welcome to it. He called his people, and the committee, and wanted to put me on trial for my life, and Garnot got up and went to the table with a sheet of paper, and Gabriel Dumont took a chair on a syrup keg, and Riel called up the witnesses against me. He said I was a liar, and he told them that I had said all the people in that section of the country had risen against them. He said it was not so, that it was only the people in the town. He said he could prove I was a liar by Thomas Scott.
Q. Was Thomas Scott there?
A. Yes; he said so.
Q. Well?
A. He called for Garnot, the secretary, and called for the witnesses, and they would assent to what he said.
Q. Which of the two Arcands was there?
A. Baptiste. He was putting words into their mouths, saying things I did not understand at all. When I saw what he was driving at, I says, I am here, and if you wish to hear me speak for myself, I will do so. I says, there is no necessity for Mr. Riel telling what I have to say. If you wish to hear me, I will speak, and if not, I wont. They said yes. I says, Mr. Riel, I suppose you understand Cree. He says yes. I did not speak French, and I says, I will speak in Cree. I spoke in Cree.
Q. You spoke in Cree, and told them what you have said?
A. Yes, and what had occurred. Champagne got up and said - I told them Riel was threatening to take my life. I said, if you think by taking my life you will benefit your cause, you are welcome to do so. He said, no; they did not wish anything of that kind. They wanted to redress their grievances in a constitutional way. Riel then got up and said he had a committee meeting of importance going on upstairs, and he went upstairs.
Q. Did he return?
A. I spoke to them for quite awhile and he occasionally came down and put his head down stairs and said I was speaking too loud, that I was annoying their committee meeting. When I said what I had to say, I asked for something to eat, that I was pretty hungry. I got something, and after I got through there was a lot of blankets in the corner, and I lay down there till Mitchell was ready.
Q. Where was Mitchell at the time?
A. Up stairs. When he got through he came down with the prisoner and I told him to stay there awhile, and we left for Fort Carlton. When he came down, he apologized to me for what he had said, that he did not mean it to me personally, that he had the greatest respect for me personally but that it was my cause he was speaking against, and he wished to show he entertained great respect for me. He also apologized in French to the people there and he said as I was going out that he was very sorry I was against him, that he would be glad to have me with them and that it was not too late for me to join them yet. He also said this was Crozier's last opportunity of averting bloodshed, that unless he surrendered Fort Carlton, an attack would be made at twelve o'clock.
Q. He said if Major Crozier did not surrender, the attack would be made at twelve o'clock that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anything more?
A. That was all I had to do with him then and I then left.
Q. What did you then do?
A. I went to Carlton.
Q. That would have been on the morning of the 21st?
A. Yes.
Q. About what time?
A. One or two in the afternoon of the 21st.
Q. What happened on the way'?
A. I met a number of armed people coming into Batoche.
Q. How far from Batoche?
A. About two miles.
Q. You met a number of armed people in sleighs?
A. Yes, in sleighs, Indians and half-breeds.
Q. Indians from what reserve?
A. I did not recognize the Indians.
Q. How many sleighs full?
A. Five or six. Five or six I met on the road, I spoke to them. I knew two or three of the men who were there. I asked them what all this was about. They jumped out of the sleigh and shook hands with me, and told me they had been sent for and taken by Albert Monkman who was driving the team.
Q. How many altogether were there?
A. In one sleigh there were five and I think in another there were six. Altogether there must have been twenty or twenty-five.
Q. Were they all armed?
A. I could not say because they were sitting down. I saw rifles and guns among them.
Q. You went back to Carlton?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you meet many men on the way?
A. That is all we met on the road. When we got to Duck Lake there was a trail coming from the east and west and we saw some sleighs passing there and some sleighs passing along the lake.
Q. Then when did you get to Duck Lake, or to Carlton, rather?
A. About four o'clock.
Q. What was your object in returning to Carlton?
A. I was just returning. As I was going away from the council room I overtook Emmanuel Champagne. He was walking along on the road with Jackson who was with Riel at that time. r told him to get into the rig and r thanked him for the stand he had taken. r told him if I could be of service to him in any way, I would never forget the services he had rendered me. He told me then they had decided to send two men to Major Crozier but they were afraid of treachery, that they were afraid they would be arrested. I says, you need not be afraid, I will be one of the party that will come out, and you may tell them they will not be interfered with at all. When we got to Carlton, Mitchell delivered the letter to Major Crozier, and I think it was asking him to meet him half way some time that night, and that Riel did not choose to meet Major Crozier himself but that he had sent two men.
Q. Did you go as representing Major Crozier?
A. Yes. About an hour after we had reached there Charles Nolin and Maxime Lepine came up driving in a cutter. We were mounted. We told them what Major Crozier had said - that they should give us the names of the leaders of the movement, and that they would have to answer to the law, but that a great many of them who had been forced into the movement that they should be dealt leniently with. Nolin said Riel and his council demanded the unconditional surrender of Fort Carlton, and nothing else would satisfy them, and if they did so no harm would be done them, that they would give a safe conduct home. We said there was no use discussing the matter at all, as we said the matter could not be entertained at all - that all we had to say was to advise them to disperse and go home, and that the leaders of the movement would have to be answerable to the law. He then said he had a letter which he was told to hand us, but that it would be no use to hand it as Fort Carlton was not to be surrendered. I thanked them for the stand they had taken when I had been there that morning, and I returned to Carlton.
Q. Is that all that passed between you and Capt. Moore and Nolin and Lepine?
A. Yes.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. We returned to Carlton.
Q. How long did you remain there?
A. I remained there until the night of the 24th.
Q. You had got as far as the 23rd. You gave me an account of your interview in the council chamber, of your trial. You spoke of Garnot, Philip Garnot, I think, you said?
A. Yes, Philip Garnot.
Q. What capacity did he act in?
A. As secretary.
Q. Of the council?
A. Yes, taking notes of the evidence.
Q. Which was given against you?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, did anyone ask him to act?
A. Riel called for the secretary, and then Garnot came forward.
Q. And took his seat at the table?
A. Yes, as secretary of the council.
Q. Now, on the 21st you got back to Carlton - how long did you remain there?
A. Till the 24th.
Q. What did you do then?
A. On the night of the 24th, between ten and eleven o'clock, Crozier asked me to go and see if I could hear anything of Major Irvine.
Q. Was he expected?
A. We heard that he left Regina with reinforcements, but nothing had been heard of him.
Q. You heard that he had left Regina?
A. That he was to leave at a certain time.
Q. And nothing had been heard of him up to that time?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 24th Crozier asked you to go and see if you could find anything about him?
A. I started and took the trail to Prince Albert. The wire was tapped about half way between Batoche to see if anything had been heard of him at Prince Albert before going any further. When about twenty-three miles out from Carlton I met two messengers with a note for Crozier. I opened the note and found that it was a note from Inspector Moffatt stating that he heard he was at the South Branch, and that he expected him that night. I found out that he had reached Prince Albert. I saw him and told him that I was sent by Major Crozier. I then returned to Fort Carlton, traveling all night, and got into Carlton about four o'clock in the afternoon.
Q. With Colonel Irvine?
A. No, I left him. They had made a march that day of about seventy miles and he did not know whether he could make Carlton that day from there.
Q. You returned to Carlton?
A. Yes.
Q. You got there between three and four o'clock?
A. Between four and five.
Q. Having gone out and got tidings of Colonel Irvine you returned at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I overtook a messenger with a note from Colonel Irvine to Crozier saying that he could not leave that day, that he would the next, the 26th. I had been traveling all night and turned in early. After I turned in I was told that Crozier wanted to send Sergeant Stewart with teams and an escort for the purpose of getting some provisions and flour from the store belonging to Mitchell at Duck Lake, and that he wanted me to accompany the party, and we were to start at four o'clock the next morning, that would be the 26th. The next morning came and we got up and got ready. Sergeant Stewart sent out an advance guard of four men on ahead towards Duck Lake to see if the road was clear; we followed with the teams and sleighs. I was riding on about a quarter of a mile ahead of the teams looking out. When I got within three or four miles of Duck Lake I noticed on the road some people lying in the snow; there were marks; I took them to be Indians. I noticed them communicating the signal by walking backwards and forwards. I suspected they were watching the trail. I got to within about a mile and a half of Duck Lake. There is a ridge there a little to the north of the mail station. When I got there I saw some mounted policemen riding at a full gallop, and immediately after them there were some mounted men following them. I wheeled around and rode back as hard as I could make my horse go. There was a hill about a quarter of a mile away I wanted to get to before they came. When I got within sight of the men I threw up my hands and told them to prepare and get their rifles ready. I told them that they were following the mounted police. I told them to get their rifles and said not to fire, whatever they do I can ride out and if they want to fire they can have the first chance at me and you can defend yourselves. They were coming round the bluff. They were pretty close to the men. I saw they would overtake them. I knew they were excited, so I rode out as hard as I could. They then hauled up all but one man, who came right on and who never hauled up at all. It was Patrice Flary. I asked them what they were about. They said, what are you about? I said that we were going to Duck Lake to get Mitchell's provisions. They said there were a great many there. I asked whether they were at Duck Lake; they said yes. They said we had better go back. I turned around and went towards the sleighs. As I was getting near the sleighs a party of perhaps thirty or forty of them, very excited, came upon us. They were yelling and flourishing their rifles. They were very excited. Gabriel Dumont was of the party; he was very excited; jumped off his horse and loaded his rifle and cocked it and came up to me and threatened to blowout my brains. He and some others threatened to use their rifles. I told them to be quiet, that two could play at that game. Dumont talked very wildly; he wanted us to surrender. He said it was my fault that the people were not assisting them, and that I was to blame for all the trouble. I told them that we could not surrender, that I thought we had the best right to this property. Some of them jumped off their horses and went into the sleighs. I rode up and told the teamster to hold on to his horses. They made one or two attempts to snatch the lines. Finally he fired his rifle over our heads. They all stepped off the road and we went on the road to Carlton.
Q. Had any of the men got into the sleighs?
A. Two of them went into one sleigh and they went to a second team to try and get the lines.
Q. Then there was nothing but the one shot fired?
A. That is all.
Q. You returned to Carlton?
A. Yes.
Q. How many teams had you upon that occasion?
A. Seven or eight.
Q. How many policemen?
A. A policeman in each team, Sergeant Stewart and some others.
Q. How many altogether? A Fifteen or sixteen. There were twenty-two of us altogether; fifteen policemen I think.
Q. You returned to Carlton?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. About ten o'clock.
Q. In the morning?
A.Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. As we returned to go back Sergeant Stewart sent a man to report what had taken place.
Q. You had sent in a man in advance to report what had taken place?
A. Yes.
Q. Well?
A. When we got near Carlton we met an advance guard coming out of Carlton. There were a number of teams. They were coming out of Carlton, and we wheeled around and went out with them.
Q. Who was in command of that party?
A. Major Crozier.
Q. How many were there?
A. Ninety-nine.
Q. How many constables?
A. Fifty-six.
Q. Of the party that first met you, the time you turned back, you stated there were thirty-five or forty?
A. Yes.
Q. How many were Indians and how many were half-breeds?
A. There were some Indians and some half-breeds. I cannot tell you the proportion at all. I was not paying much attention. I kept my eye on Jim Owen and one or two others.
Q. You met the advance guard coming out of Carlton, in all there were ninety-nine?
A. Yes.
Q. Major Crozier was in command?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any sleighs?
A. Yes.
Q. How were the men?
A. Some mounted and some in sleighs.
Q. What is the distance from Carlton to Duck Lake?
A. About fourteen miles.
Q. Did you join and go back with them?
A. Yes, the whole party.
Q. This would be on the 26th?
A. Yes. We went on till we came to a house about four miles from Duck Lake, when the advance guard returned and reported that there were some Indians in the house (I believe it was Beardy's house), he was in the house.
Q. Was it upon his reserve?
A. Yes.
Q. Well?
A. The interpreter went over and he came back again; I do not know what occurred between them. We went on, and when we got to the same place where I returned back that morning, we saw the advance guard coming over the hill in the same way as in the morning.
Q. Was the advance guard retiring?
A. Yes, at the same place as in the morning, and there was a number of men following them.
Q. About how many?
A. I cannot tell you, they were coming over the hill and they were scattered all along the road; there appeared to be quite a number of them. Major Crozier told us to unhitch the horses and make a barricade and take the horses to the rear. When they came near, within half a-mile, they made use of a blanket as a flag.
Q. White blanket?
A. Yes. Crozier went out and called his interpreter, and the two parties came near each other. They began to talk; in the meantime they were running on to the road behind us and getting behind the hills.
Q. They were changing their positions?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, what then?
A. While placing the sleighs I heard some one calling out that they were firing upon us, and let them have it. I said wait till we get hurt. Just then I turned my head kind of this way, and saw Major Crozier lift his hand in the direction the firing was from, and he said "fire now," and the firing began then and there was quite a skirmish for thirty or forty minutes after that.
Q. How long did it last?
A. Thirty or forty minutes. I did not take time into consideration.
Q. How many were killed on your side?
A. We left ten men upon the field, but one of them was wounded, and turned up afterwards.
Q. Who was that?
A. Newett.
Q. The other nine?
A. Were dead. One mounted policeman was killed and several were wounded; two died just after we got to Carlton.
Q. You brought two back with you?
A. One, the others died after we got back to Carlton.
Q. What time did you get back to Carlton?
A. It must have been about four o'clock in the afternoon.
Q. How many were killed on the other side; you did not know at the time?
A. No.
Q. During the engagement how many men would you judge to be engaged upon the other side?
A. We could not see them. I cannot tell that. Some were in the house, some were behind the hills. There were two sleighs with two Indians in each behind us, and one Indian who was mounted, that was the Indian that was talking to Major Crozier; he was killed when the firing began.
Q. Would your observation enable you to say how many were engaged upon the other side?
A. The road seemed to be pretty well covered with them.
Q. Can you form any idea as to the number?
A. The road was straight, and they seemed to cover a greater space than we covered, but I cannot say as to the number. They seemed to cover a greater space than we did.
Q. You cannot say the proportion of Indians and half-breeds?
A. I cannot say. I saw five Indians; these Indians got behind us, one of them was killed.
Q. You did not recognize any of the people that were there?
A. I did not recognize any person.
Q. You returned to Carlton and got there about four o'clock?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. They were some time attending the wounded. Colonel Irvine got in about half an hour after we got in, and I think it was that afternoon or the next morning that he decided to leave Carlton and go down to Prince Albert.
Q. Did you go with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Carlton burnt?
A. Yes; I believe it took fire accidentally, and part of it was burnt then.
Q. He decided to evacuate Carlton with his forces?
A. Yes.
Q. And to retire on Prince Albert?
A. Yes.
Q. What distance is that?
A. Forty-six or fifty miles.
Q. Did you go with him to Prince Albert?
A. Yes.
Q. What day was that?
A. We left on the morning of the 28th, about one or two o'clock, and we got down that evening.
Q. You remained at Prince Albert during the rest of the rebellion?
A. Yes.
Q. You have told me all you know about it?
A. Yes. There may perhaps be some things which I have omitted. When Mitchell introduced me to the prisoner, he asked Mitchell whether I came of my own accord, or whether I came with him. When he heard I came with him, he said I was entitled to the same protection as he was, but if I came of my own accord, he would look after me, or something of that kind. The prisoner said I was entitled to the same protection as he was.
Q. Is there anything else that you remember?
A. No, I cannot remember everything that took place; I do not remember anything else.
By MR. GREENSHIELDS:
Q. The first time that you met the prisoner was in the council chamber?
A. Yes.
Q. And before that you never saw him?
A. No.
Q. Nor did you see him after that till in court?
A. I saw him in court when he was first brought into court.
Q. You had no conversation, nor did you see him from that time till he surrendered to General Middleton?
A. No.
Q. You never had any personal quarrel or trouble with him before?
A. No, I never had any communication with him.
Q. Did he appear excited when you were introduced by Mitchell?
A. No, not at the time; a while after he became excited.
Q. How long after was it till he got excited?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Five or ten minutes?
A. Perhaps a quarter of an hour.
Q. During that interval you were talking to him all the time?
A. He went away for a little while, and then he came back again; he went up stairs and came back again.
Q. Tell us what he said when you were first introduced and shook hands with him. Did he speak first, or did you?
A. I spoke first. I told him that we would shake hands, or something to that effect, and he said yes.
Q. Now, what did you first begin to talk with him about?
A. I told him - I said there appears to be great excitement here. He said, no excitement at all; everything was quiet, or something like that.
Q. You said something about his having spoken about wanting to get their grievances redressed?
A. Yes, I think I said there seemed to be a number of men armed, and he said that they had been, asking for their rights for fifteen years, and they had not yet been granted, and they had decided to make a demonstration.
Q. Did you have any conversation as to what their rights were?
A. No, I had not with him.
Q. Whom did you talk about it with?
A. The rest of the people that were in.
Q. That is, the council?
A. Yes.
Q. What was their statement to you regarding their rights?
A. They did not seem to know that they were entitled to scrip, and never got it.
Q. Did they speak of having made any petitions to the Government for their rights?
A. Yes, we discussed the matter. I had taken part myself in the petitions that were sent forward, and knew more about it than they did. It came out in this way: Gabriel Dumont said that I had taken no interest in the matter before; that I never advised them; that it was only now when matters had gone so far, that I advised them in the matter.
Q. That was reproaching you because you had been instrumental in getting the rights of the half-breeds, the English half-breeds?
A. We were entitled to scrip, but we never got it yet.
Q. Have you got it since?
A. No.
Q. There is a commission sitting now?
A. Yes.
Q. Riel said that the only answer they got to every petition was an increase of police?
A. No.
Q. What was on the table when you went into the council chamber?
A. Some tin dishes and some spoons; some fried bacon and some bannocks.
Q. Any blood in the dishes?
A. No; I did not see any.
Q. Will you swear that there was not? Will you swear that some of them were not eating cooked blood at the time?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. How long after the conversation with him till he used the words "he wanted blood"?
A. He left me and came back again. It was then he said it.
Q. Was he in a very excited state of mind when he talked about blood?
A. He became very excited. I told him that I did not think that he had adopted a wise way to redress their grievances.
Q. In what position was he at that time?
A. Standing, striking the table.
Q. What did the prisoner say to you when Mitchell stated you were entitled to the same protection as Mitchell was?
A. It was Riel said that, not Mitchell.
Q. Didn't he say you were at liberty to return?
A. He said I was entitled to the same protection as Mitchell.
Q. What did you understand?
A. That I was at liberty to go as I pleased.
Q. You did not go as you pleased?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was that before or after the conversation about the blood took place - was it before Riel told you he wanted blood that he told you you were free to go?
A. It was before I had any conversation with him at all.
Q. The first thing he did on being introduced to you was to assure you that you were at liberty?
A. Yes.
Q. You had no fear but that you were at perfect liberty to return?
A. It did not make any difference to me.
Q. After telling you that you were at perfect liberty he spoke to you of his desire for blood?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Did you have any other conversation with him that day?
A. He said what I said at the time he went up stairs, he went up and he would occasionally put his head through and say that I was speaking too loud. After he came down he apologized and said that he had great respect for me personally, but it was my cause.
Q. On the whole he treated you civilly?
A. No, he made use of language to me that was never before used to me.
Q. Did he have any conversation with you as to the object of the rebellion?
A. He said they wanted their rights.
Q. Did he tell you anything about the administration of the North-West Territories?
A. No.
Q. About a new church?
A. No.
Q. No conversation about either of these matters?
A. No.
Q. When he called for blood was it after he went down?
A. He went away and came back and called for blood.
Q. And then he went upstairs?
A. Yes.
Q. When he came down the next time he apologized for the language he used?
A. Yes.
Q. Shortly after that you went away?
A. Yes.